纽约客再现（2015）

我们怎么敢谈论和平
How dare we talk about peace on Earth
当我们正在每个月花费100亿美元
when we're spending 10 billion dollars a month
在一场战争里
on a war that everybody's a
每个人都对伊朗那边发生的事有点糊涂
bit fuzzy on what we're even doing over there.
另一拨人是这样
And another round of people were, like,
我们走了 你不能探讨战争
"We're out of here. You can't talk about that."
还有什么比挑战权威
I was, like, is there anything more rooted in our tradition,
从犹太教传统产生的基♥督♥教传统
the Christian tradition coming out of the Jewish tradition,
更扎根于我们的传统中吗
than challenging the use of power?
2011年 我写了一本书叫《真爱无敌》.
In 2011, I wrote a book called "Love Wins."
在书中
At the heart of "Love Wins",
我仅仅试着揭露的观点是
I'm simply trying to expose the idea that
当有人告诉你数以亿计的人
when someone says to you billions of people
将会死亡 永远饱受地狱之火的煎熬
are going to die and burn forever in Hell,
被仁爱的上帝折磨
and be tortured by an all-loving God,
那不是个好消息 那是个恐怖故事
that's not good news, that's a horror story.
比如说一个17岁的反基♥督♥教的人死了
Let's say a 17-year-old rejects Christ, dies,
距离现在的1700年前 或者不管你想怎么说
and 17 million years from now, or however you want to say that,
那很明显是过分夸大的语言
that's obviously sort of over the top language,
上帝还是会惩罚那个人
God is still punishing that person,
上帝是那样的吗
is God like that?
我认为这是一个完全合理的问题
And I think it's a totally legitimate question.
- 罗布 你觉得上帝是那样的吗 - 不认为
- Do you think God is like that, Rob? - No.
当我第一次在出版前读《真爱无敌》
When I first read "Love Wins" Before it came out,
我在电♥话♥上对罗布说
I said to Rob on the phone,
他们会吊死你
I said, "Well, they're gonna string you up."
他们会... 他们会...
"They're gonna... They're gonna...
他们会折磨死你
"They're gonna crucify you on this one."
我认为这个人是个假导师
I believe the... the man, uh, is a false teacher.
他是个异教♥徒♥
I believe he's a heretic,
因为圣经上很明确说地狱是存在的
because the Bible's very clear that there is a Hell.
当人们认为他们在为上帝辩护
When people think they're defending God,
各种常态的礼仪都被扔到窗外
all sorts of normal decorum gets tossed out the window.
他没有福音派的信仰
He holds no evangelical convictions,
很明显他不把圣经视为
and it's pretty clear that he doesn't regard the Bible
任何形式的权威
as any kind of authority.
不要玩弄更高的权威
Don't you mess with my higher power.
有种特定的毒液喷发出来
There's a specific kind of venom that comes up,
某种程度上只是恐惧
and in some senses it's just the terror
他们行走的地基
that the foundation, the ground they've been walking on
可能不绝对是他们想的那样
might not be as absolute as they think it is.
我们人类有着
We human beings have this
极大的倾向创建地球上的地狱
tremendous propensity to create hells on Earth.
这才是我们在这的原因
That's why we're here.
帮助彼此 把对方从我们此刻
To help each other, rescue each other from
创建的地狱里解救出来
the very hells on Earth that we create right now.
你在修改基♥督♥教的福音书
You're amending the Gospel, the Christian message
从而使得当代人听着觉得顺耳
so that it's palatable to contemporary people
他们会觉得地狱与天堂的概念
who find, for example, the idea of Hell and Heaven
非常难以忍♥受
very difficult to stomach.
我记得有一个家族
I remember there was a family
一直有来教堂
that had been going to the church that were
子嗣有着很大的生意
the heirs of a very, very large business.
我记得他们中的一个说
I remember one of them saying,
我们都要离开
"You know, we're all leaving."
我问 为什么 他回答
Um, and I said, "Why?" And he said,
因为我们学习了圣经
"Because, we've studied the scriptures."
他们意思是我走错了路
And it was this sort of, you are goin' down the wrong road.
他们都会坐的很前
And they all... they would all sit in the very front row,
在前四排坐
in the first, like, four rows,
他们全走了
and they all just left.
我才记起 哦 原来是这么运作的
Um, and I... I remember, "Oh, that's how this works."
这件事打击了我
Now, it broke me, it broke me,
但给了我坚定的决心
and it built like this nuclear engine of resolve,
走自己的路 坚持下去
like, stay on your journey and just keep going,
一直带来好消息
and keep bringing good news,
不断告诉人们你所见的
and keep telling people what you're seeing,
不断试着描绘
and keep trying to paint beautiful pictures of
我们大家未来的宏图
what might be possible for all of us.
罗布没有被挤出去
Rob was not pushed out.
我认为他在这片土地上扎根
I think he just outgrew this place.
对他来说继续向前只是时间问题
It was just time for him to move on.
教会的人收到一封邮件上说
The congregation gets an email saying,
罗布和克里斯汀准备离开我们
"Rob and Kristen are going to be leaving us
去洛杉矶探索新的机会和项目
"To explore new possibilities and projects in Los Angeles.
罗布会在周天告诉你更多
"Rob will tell you more on Sunday."
他们就这么被告知的
That's what they got.
我记得走到台上
And I remember walking up onto the stage,
整个地方突然热情高涨
and the whole place immediately leapt to their feet,
开始欢呼
and started cheering.
他们欢呼了5或10分钟
And they just cheered for, like, five or ten minutes.
很多人说 我们爱你但你必须要继续走下去
So many people said, we love you but you have to keep going.
很多人说你一直叫我们冒险
And so many people said you've always taught us take risks.
继续走下去 继续探索
Keep going, keep exploring.
现在你就要这么做 你知道我的意思嘛
Now you're just having to do... You know what I mean?
你一直告诉我们要做的事
The thing you've always told us we need to do.
感觉
And it was like...
他们听进去我的话
my word, yeah.
我现在有点自我催泪
I'm, like, Oprah-ing myself right now.
我的睫毛膏要脱妆了
My mascara's gonna run.
2011年12月 罗布·贝尔在他一手创建的教堂进行了最后一次布道
罗布和他的妻子克里斯汀离开马尔斯山搬去了洛杉矶
罗布现在是一名作家和大型布道会的传道者
如果你做的事
What if you could take the stuff you're doing
可以被传播得更大更广呢
and you could broadcast bigger and wider?
每次我听到手无寸铁的平民
Every time I hear about an unarmed American
被警♥察♥射杀
being shot by a police officer,
我哀悼死者和他们的家庭
I grieve for that person, for their family,
还有不健全体系中的警♥察♥
for a police officer in a system that's that sort of jacked up.
感觉就是一团糟
Feels like it's just a mess all the way around.
就像是我们遭受过的
This was, like, a collective trauma
集体性创伤
that we're all experiencing.
这会载入史册
This has gone down in history.
有些人是同性恋
Some people are gay,
你仍旧是我们的兄弟
and you're our brothers.
你仍旧是我们的姐妹
And you're our sisters.
我们爱你
And we love you.
我们爱你
We love you.
我对教会有着更大的展开图
I have a more expanded view of church.
我喜欢耶稣说
But I love the idea that Jesus said,
众志成城
wherever two or three are gathered,
其利断金
something's goin' down.
我加的后一句
I added that last part.
但是主旨是周日的一个小时
But the idea that, like, one hour on a Sunday
在教堂有点荒诞
somehow is church is completely ridiculous.
你和我在同一个教育系统
You and I were raised in an educational system
文化和国家中成长
in a culture, in a country,
都被一个观点驱动着
that was driven by this one single idea.
我们可能还不理解
We may not understand it yet,
但是给我们时间 我们会想出解释
but give us time, and we will come up with an explanation.
问题是
But the problem is
每一种解释
every explanation
几乎没有掀下一层神秘面纱
merely moves the mystery down a layer.
这里有大家能够
There is more joy right here right now
感受到更多的快乐
than any of us could begin to taste.
愿恩惠与安乐
And may grace and peace be with you
与你们同在
every step of the way.
谢谢
Thank you.
- 我认识你 - 你好
- Oh, I know you. - Hi!
- 谢谢 - 你很了不起
- Thank you. - No, no, you were fantastic.
人们需要好消息
People need good news
他们需要知道他们能挺过去