美国花花公子（2017）

American Playboy:The Hugh Hefner Story S01E07

Part 6 May 13, 2021, 3:36 p.m.

那么你佩服什么样的男人？为什么？
So what men do you admire? And why?
我一直佩服杰克.肯尼迪和罗伯特.肯尼迪。
Well, I've always admired
Jack and Robert Kennedy.
那么女人呢？你佩服什么样的女人？
How about women? What
women do you admire?
玛格丽特.米德（美国人类学家）。
Margaret Mead, very much.
呃，呃...
Uh, uh, uh...
我一时想不起她的名字了，
I can't remember her name
off the top of my head,
但她是SIECUS（美国性信息
与性教育联合会）的领导。
but the head of SIECUS.
玛丽.考尔德伦。
Mary Calderone.
玛丽.考尔德伦，是的。就是她。
Mary Calderone, yes. Very much so.
采访一开始就很艰难，
The interview got off to a rough start
从那之后就越来越不轻松。
and it only went downhill from there.
我不明白的是为什么女权主义者不喜欢我，
What I don't understand is why
feminists don't appreciate us,
不喜欢花♥花♥公♥子♥哲学。
appreciate the Playboy philosophy.
我从没把他们挑出来作为死敌。
I never picked them
out as special enemies.
他们先选了我。
They chose me first.
但你是否明白你把女人当成了物品？
But don't you understand that
you have made women objects?
就好像把我们挂在卖♥♥肉的钩子上。
It's as if we're put on a meat hook.
而且，根据花♥花♥公♥子♥哲学，
And, according to Playboy philosophy,
上了年纪的女人毫无用处。
women are useless with age.
等一下，我全力支持妇女的选举权，
Now, wait a second, now, I'm
all for women's right to vote,
个人财产权，所有这些权利。
to own property, all of that.
我要说的是，我认为
女人可以对男人有吸引力。
What I'm saying is that I think
women can be attractive to men.
我认为男人应该对女人有吸引力。
And I think men should
be attractive to women,
但我不指望他们完全认同这一点。
but I wouldn't rest their
entire identity on it.
我们谈点别的吧。
Let's take a different tact.
如果让你对《美开乐》杂♥志♥的读者说句话，
If you had one thing to say to
the women readers of McCall's,
你会说什么？
what would it be?
买♥♥《花♥花♥公♥子♥》。
Buy Playboy.
这些就是所有你想说的？
That's your whole message?
就这些。
That's it.
好吧，非常感谢，格洛丽亚。
All right, thank you very much, Gloria.
请原谅。
Now, if you'll excuse me.
斯泰纳姆录下了我们的讨论，
Steinem had recorded our discussion
用于10月号♥的《美开乐》杂♥志♥。
for the October issue
of McCall's magazine.
当那期刊物摆上报摊，
And when the issue hit newsstands,
很明显我的观点并没有
it was clear that I hadn't made my point
达到预期的效果。
as effectively as I thought.
妇女运动攻击他的杂♥志♥，
The women's movement
attacking the magazine
无疑让他措手不及。
certainly caught him up short.
他觉得他为女人们做了件好事。
He thought he was doing
a great job for women.
说好女孩喜欢性，
Saying that good girls like sex,
说女人应该掌控自己的性生活。
saying that women should have
charge of their own sex lives.
赞成堕胎，让女人工作。
Being in favor of abortion,
placing women in jobs.
我父亲开创出一条道路，
My dad was carving out a road
[库柏.海夫纳，《花♥花♥公♥子♥》首席创意官]
让男人和女人们可以说我们喜欢性，
for men and women to say we like sex.
他从男性的观点这样去做。
And he was doing it from
the male point of view.
格洛丽亚.斯泰纳姆说，
Gloria Steinem was saying,
完全没有太多机会，
there really aren't a whole
lot of opportunities out there
能够让女性从事一个
that allow women to pursue a career
不把女人物化的职业。
that doesn't involve
objectifying one's self.
完全可以这么说。因为这是真的。
And that point was fair
to make. Because it's true.
当我试图缓和花♥花♥公♥子♥
While I had tried to smooth
over Playboy's relationship
和女权运动的关系，
with the movement,
似乎我把局面弄得更糟了。
it seemed I had just
made the situation worse.
但我想证明花♥花♥公♥子♥不是性别歧视的，
But I was determined to prove
that Playboy was not sexist,
因此我决定再试一次。
so I decided to try again.
这一次，我想在黄金时段去做。
And this time, I wanted
to do it in prime time.
迪克.卡维特秀！
The Dick Cavett Show!
休.海夫纳、杰弗逊飞机乐队...
With Hugh Hefner, Jefferson Airplane...
那个时候，
At that time,
迪克.卡维特秀已经开播差不多两年。
The Dick Cavett Show had been
on the air for about two years.
他们拥有庞大的观众群，
They had a huge audience
卡维特定期邀请
and Cavett regularly brought on guests
有话要说的嘉宾。
who had something to say.
我的下一位嘉宾创造了一个帝国。
My next guest has created an empire.
实际上，伦敦泰♥晤♥士♥报♥说，
他们总是把海夫纳
In fact, The London Times said
they always refer to Hefner
当作伟大帝国的缔造者之一，
as one of the great empire builders
他们说他是人们熟知的美国生活的象征，
and they said that he
is as well known a symbol
就像可口可乐一样。
of American life as Coca-Cola.
大家欢迎休.海夫纳先生。
Will you welcome Mr. Hugh Hefner.
当他请我上他的节目，
So when he asked me to come on his show
面对两个著名的女权主义者，
我一秒都没有犹豫。
with two prominent feminists,
I didn't hesitate for a second.
它看起来就像一个
It looks like a show
[迪克.卡维特，脱口秀主持人]
为论战而设计的节目。
that was probably
contrived for controversy.
大家欢迎苏珊.布朗米勒和萨莉.肯普顿。
Will you welcome Susan
Brownmiller and Sally Kempton.
演出由此开始。
And the show went on from there.
他们把我们当做女人来压♥迫♥。
They oppress us as women.
他们从压♥迫♥女人获益，确实如此。
They benefit from oppressing
women, they really do.
海夫纳创建了一个以
压♥迫♥女性为基础的帝国。
Hefner has built an empire
based on oppressing women.
以前你听过这样的说法吗？
Have you had this
reaction before tonight?
-是的。我可以稍微回应一下吗？
-好的。
- Yes. Can I respond just a little bit?
- All right.
我认为无数世代以来，
I think that women, over
generations and centuries,
女性确实受到压♥迫♥。
have indeed been oppressed.
我认为这是毫无疑问的。
I think there's no question about it.
我认为在社会的很多领域，
I think there are still
many areas in society
她们依然没有平等的工作机会。
in which they do not have
equal job opportunity.
但从一个最基本的范畴来看，
But I take issue and separate
我持不同的意见和观点。
in this one rather fundamental area.
我认为不论你是一个男人还是女人，
I think whether you are a male or female
都是作为一个人来到世上。
is the beginning of who
you are as a human being.
我认为这是最重要的，
I think that it's important
我认为作为人，
and I think that it is
important emotionally
情感与肉体一样重要。
as well as physically.
我认为二者是有差别的，
I think there are differences
我认为二者应该永远有所差别。
and I think there should
continue to be differences.
你要回应吗，苏珊？
Would you like to respond, Susan?
我当然要。
I certainly would.
你为女性选择的角色是降低她们的人格，
The role that you have selected
for women is degrading to women
因为你选择把女人看作性玩物，
because you choose to
see women as sex objects,
而不是完全的人类。
not as full human beings.
这显然不是降低人格...
Well, it obviously isn't degrading...
等一下。哪天...
Hold on now. The day that...
这显然不是贬低许许多多的女人。
It obviously isn't
degrading to a lot of women.
我想说...我还没说完。
I want to say... I haven't finished.
哪天要是你想来这儿，屁♥股♥后面