转折点：原子弹与冷战（2024）

Turning Point: The Bomb and the Cold War S01E08

Part 5 March 18, 2024, 3:47 p.m.

He is still a... a Soviet type of a man.
（亚历山大·别利亚耶夫普♥京♥的前同事 2000年采访）
我觉得他甚至对苏联帝国怀有执念
I think that he even dreams about the Soviet Empire.
弗拉基米尔·普♥京♥做的第一件事
One of the first things that Vladimir Putin did
就是恢复了斯大林时代的苏联国歌♥
was he restored the old Stalin-era Soviet national anthem.
光荣啊我们自♥由♥的祖国
♪ Be glorified Our free Fatherland... ♪
在鲍里斯·叶利钦执政后期俄♥罗♥斯♥人有过非常负面的经历
Russians had this very negative experience during the later years of Boris Yeltsin,
人们觉得这对俄♥罗♥斯♥来说是件好事
and there was a sense that it was a good thing for Russia.
普♥京♥立即与西方建立联♥系♥
Putin immediately reached out to the West.
普♥京♥在外交政策上的第一个重要举动
Putin's first significant act in foreign policy
是向北约秘♥书♥长♥发出了一条信息
was to send a message to the Secretary General of NATO,
他说："我们会重新开始"
and he said, "We'll start again."
所以北约在莫斯科重新开设了办公室
And so, NATO reopened an office in Moscow,
普♥京♥也开始与北约建立关系
and Putin started building up the relationship with NATO.
从那时起他在外交政策上的第二件大事
From that point, his second significant act in foreign policy
就是拉拢托尼·布莱尔
was to get on to Tony Blair.
（托尼·布莱尔）
托尼·布莱尔当时是欧洲杰出的领袖
Tony Blair, at the time, was the preeminent leader in Europe.
非常受欢迎的人物
Enormously popular figure.
于是普♥京♥很狡猾地说
So rather cunningly, Putin said,
"你和你的妻子为什么不来观看普罗科菲耶夫歌♥剧
"Why don't you and your wife come to a premiere
《战争与和平》的新版首映式呢? 就在圣彼得堡
of a new production of Prokofiev's opera War and Peace in St. Petersburg,
那里是我的家乡"
in my home city?"
完全是非正式的家庭拜访
So a totally informal, kind of family visit.
我是第一个从西方去见他的领导人
I was the first leader to go and see him from the West.
他想在圣彼得堡见面
He was wanting the meeting in St. Petersburg.
他希望会面是聚焦西方的
He wanted it to be Western-oriented.
他谈到了他的经济改革
He was talking about the reform of his economy,
一个东西方关系的新时代
a new era for Western-Eastern relations.
那个非正式的周末完全不是非正式的
This informal weekend wasn't at all informal.
第一次会面是在一座宏伟宫殿上面的一间大房♥间里举♥行♥的
The very first meeting took place in a grand room of a grand palace,
全世界的媒体都在报道因为这是西方领导人
with all the world's press covering it because it was the first time
第一次公开与普♥京♥会面
a Western leader had been seen meeting Putin.
他们在一起待了几个小时
And then they spent several hours together.
需要强调的是
It's very important to emphasize
我们迫切希望与俄♥罗♥斯♥建立良好的关系
we're desperate to have a good relationship with Russia,
拉近俄♥罗♥斯♥与我们的关系
to bring Russia closer towards us.
欧盟的一些人甚至谈论过
Some people in the European Union even talked about Russia
让俄♥罗♥斯♥成为欧盟成员
becoming a member of the European Union.
我相信他有可能成为我们的伙伴
I believed that he was someone who was potentially going to be a partner
可以进行合作
we could work with.
我们可以跟他一起解决世界上的一些问题
And with whom we could resolve some of the world's problems
而不是加剧问题
rather than aggravate them.
我记得在斯洛文尼亚第一次
I remember meeting Putin in Slovenia for the first time
与俄♥罗♥斯♥总统身份的普♥京♥会面
as the President of Russia.
他朝我们走来步态有点像运动员
And he walked toward us, and, uh, he had a kind of athlete's gait.
有什么突破吗?
Any breakthroughs?
（2001年6月16日）
但我记得我当时觉得他有点缺乏自信这很奇怪
But I remember thinking that he was a little bit lacking in confidence, oddly.
当他见到乔治·W·布♥什♥总统时他非常希望被平等对待
And when he met President George W. Bush, he so wanted to be treated as an equal.
布♥什♥总统不想做任何让他难堪的事
And President Bush didn't want to do anything to embarrass him,
因此就有了他在记者招待会上
and thus that famous moment at the press conference
被问到是否信任普♥京♥的著名时刻
when he was asked if he trusted Putin.
我会回答你的问题我看着他的眼睛
I'll answer the question. I looked the man in the eye.
我发现他非常直率值得信赖
I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy.
我们进行了非常愉快的对话
We had a very good dialogue.
我能感受到他的灵魂
I was able to, uh, get a sense of his soul.
他是一个忠于国家的人
He's a man deeply committed to his country,
为他的国家利益着想
and has the best interests of his country.
我心想："天啊他刚刚说什么? "
I thought, "Oh my God, what did he just say?"
但他只是想与普♥京♥发展关系
But he was just trying to develop a relationship with, uh, with Putin.
以及你能不能让大家都知道我们会看到一些录像?
Also, would you make everyone aware that we're gonna be seeing some tape?
天啊!
Holy shit. Jesus!
（2001年9月11日）
他在俄♥罗♥斯♥执政初期
Early in his time in power in Russia,
美国发生了911事件
September 11th happened here in the United States,
他将恐♥怖♥主♥义♥ 视为俄♥罗♥斯♥和美国的共同敌人
and he saw terrorism as a common enemy between Russia and the United States.
大家直走那里有救护车
Everybody go straight. There's an ambulance...
我认为普♥京♥觉得他找到了
I think Putin felt that he had found, actually,
与美国关系的一个新的战略基础
a new strategic rationale for the relationship with the United States.
我想代表俄♥罗♥斯♥告诉美国人♥民♥ 我们和你们站在一起
I want to tell the American people on behalf of Russia, we are with you.
（2001年9月12日）
我们对你们的痛苦感同身受我们支持你们
We share and feel your pain. We support you.
（世界贸易中心遗址 2001年11月15日）
普♥京♥认为："美国和西方终于能理解
Putin thought, "Finally, finally the United States and the West will understand
我在俄♥罗♥斯♥境内
this war on terrorism that I am carrying out
针对车♥臣♥开展的反恐战争了"
inside of Russia against Chechnya."
（美国入侵伊♥拉♥克♥ 2003年3月）
当然我认为普♥京♥很快意识到
But of course, quickly, I think, Putin realized
他对全球反恐战争的定义
that his definition of the global war on terror
与美国非常不同
was very different than the United States's.
当美国很明显要对伊♥拉♥克♥发动战争时
And that came to a head pretty quickly
这个问题很快就变得迫在眉睫了
by the time that it became clear US was moving toward war in Iraq.
在漫长的冷战对抗中伊♥拉♥克♥一直是苏联
Iraq had been one of the major Soviet proxy states and military partners
在中东地区的主要代理国家
in the Middle East throughout the long years of confrontation
和军事伙伴之一
of the Cold War.
这并不是普♥京♥认为
And this was not the kind of military adventurism
他会支持的反恐战争中的那种军事冒险主义
that Putin thought he was signing up for with the war on terror.
我会尽我所能
I will do everything in my power
使俄♥罗♥斯♥不以任何形式
so that this time as well Russia is not pulled
卷入此次伊♥拉♥克♥危机
into the Iraqi crisis in any form.
因为伊♥拉♥克♥和其他因素普♥京♥走运了
Because of Iraq and other factors, Putin gets lucky.
石油价格上涨
The price of oil goes up.
俄♥罗♥斯♥是石油和天然气输出国油价上涨是有帮助的
Russia's an oil and gas country, and if the oil price goes up, that can really help.
资金开始涌入
The money starts to pour in.
这让普♥京♥能够还清苏联的债务
It made it possible for Putin to pay off the Soviet debt.
让他有能力增加俄♥罗♥斯♥人的养老金
It made it possible for him to increase the pensions for Russians.
让他能够增加对俄♥罗♥斯♥人的其他社会服务支出
It made it possible to increase other social service payments for Russians.
人们可以比以往任何时候都更生动地看到
You start to see, more vividly than ever before,
城市中产阶级的产生
the creation of an urban middle class.
人们会说："如果他能让我们
And people just say, "Look, if he can provide us
提高生活标准我们就可以接受
with these new living standards, we're okay with it."
我们为什么要关心你们的民♥主♥? "
"Why we should care about your democracy?"
普♥京♥开始向寡头们征税
Putin, he started collecting taxes from the oligarchs.
正因为如此国家得以重新开始运作
And because of that, the state then started to function again.
然后普♥京♥开始专心致志地
And then Putin basically makes this very concerted effort
对寡头们进行控制
to bring the oligarchs to heel.
普♥京♥决定控制
Putin decided to take control
俄♥罗♥斯♥的两大主要电视频道
of the two main television channels in Russia,
这两家频道一直在私人手中
which had been in private hands.
古辛斯基和别列佐夫斯基掌管着这两家频道
Gusinsky and Berezovsky had owned these two channels,
他们被拿下了
and they were taken off them.
我在NTV的演播室虽然说来奇怪
I am in the studio of NTV, and it is strange,
但今天对NTV的所有员工来说都是一个非常重要的事件
but today is a very important event for all NTV staff.
今天我们的电视台被强行接管了
Today our TV station was taken over by force.
他们被普♥京♥有效控制着
They are put into hands effectively controlled by Putin.
因为作为一名克格勃官员普♥京♥深知 85%的俄♥罗♥斯♥人
Because Putin understood as a KGB officer that 85% of the Russian population
都是通过这两大电视频道
got pretty well all of their information
获得他们的各种信息的
through these two main television channels.
随后普♥京♥与竞争势力中心米哈伊尔·霍多尔科夫斯基
And then there was a signature early confrontation
发生了一场标志性的早期对抗
between Putin and a possible rival power center, Mikhail Khodorkovsky...
霍多尔科夫斯基当时不仅是俄♥罗♥斯♥首富
...who, by that time, was not only the richest man in Russia,
也是全世界最富有的人之一
but also one of the very wealthiest men in the whole world.
霍多尔科夫斯基似乎认为规则不再适用于他了
Khodorkovsky, he seemed to think that the rules no longer applied to him.
我不记得我是什么时候见普♥京♥的了
You know, I don't remember when I met Putin.
我看到的是一个跟我们相仿的年轻人
Here, I'm looking at a young guy much like us.
他愿意倾听理解沟通
He's ready to listen, understand, communicate.
结果发现他很有动员方面的天赋
It turned out that this guy was just a very talented recruiter.
他会向我们每个人向他的每个伙伴
He showed each of us, each of his partners,
展示我们各自想看到的东西
precisely what each one of us wanted to see.
霍多尔科夫斯基拥有一家名叫尤科斯的石油公♥司♥
Khodorkovsky owned an oil company called Yukos,
那是该国最大的石油公♥司♥
which was the largest oil company in the country.
霍多尔科夫斯基希望走出俄♥罗♥斯♥
Khodorkovsky wanted to venture beyond Russia.
他想成为国际商人
He wanted to become an international businessman.