犹太人的故事（2013）

Simon: "你说的更大的领土范围到哪里为止？"
Well, Solomon's kingdom
or David's kingdom.
Tzvi:"好吧，比如所罗门时代或者
大卫时代的那么大疆域最好"
And today I wouldn't
necessarily imagine
"我也知道这想法不靠谱"
that we would ever
return to those borders,
"重拾千年前的疆界基本不可能对吧..."
but it would be nice that
a Jewish family could move in
我只求犹太人可以回到这些地方
and build a homestead
in some of those villages.
建设犹太人的家园，那样就可以了。
Mm-hm.
There are amazingly rich
archaeological sites
Tzvi:"而且这一大♥片♥土地上有大量的各种古迹"
that are evidence
to the contribution
"证明曾居此地的犹太人"
that Jews made to this world
in this area.
"对世界作出的贡献"
The ancient Jewish settlements
in Jordan.
"比如约旦有古代犹太人定居点"
There are ancient
Jewish settlements in Syria
"叙利亚也有"
up to the River Prat, the Euphrates.
"一路往上到Prat河以及幼发拉底河周边都有犹太人的足迹"
I think it's a lie to humanity
"如果说犹太人无法定居此地"
for us not to be able to inhabit
this land and these places.
"那就是对人类历史的不诚实，对吧？"
And it would be a disaster...
"那样就太可怕了...."
'Meeting Tzvi was not easy for me.
我并不喜欢与Tzvi的这番对话
'I recognise
the sincerity of his views,
我很欣赏他的坦陈直白
'but profoundly disagree
with them.
不过我打心底难以苟同他的看法
'A sense of territorial entitlement
prescribed by the Bible
这类“圣经说了这里是我家”的观点
'is not a development
of the Zionism of necessity
绝非什么“逼上梁山”的锡安主义思想
'but a threat to it,
for the Bible is many things,
正相反， 这类观点正是对锡安主义的威胁
因为圣经虽然万世经典
'but a blueprint for peace
in this land, it is surely not.'
但是圣经绝非什么“和平路线指导手册”
If, in fact, settlements have
to be part of the Jewish state,
Simon: "如果说，所有定居点都是犹太国家的一部分"
you're going to be a minority
presiding and ruling over a...
"那你们就难免成为少数统治多数..."
you know,
an unemancipated majority.
"而且还是未被解放的多数"
You know, you will genuinely be
in the imperial situation
"那样的话，你们就是帝♥国♥主♥义♥的节奏..."
which Zionism
has never wanted to be.
"这恰好和锡安主义背道而驰..."
Um... I think that
the history is unfolding,
Tzvi:"好吧，我觉得历史还在发展"
and people like me and others
are making that history,
"我们这些人都在创造历史"
and it's up to us to bravely
look at where we live
"怎样创造这段历史，取决于我们大胆审视
我们居住的这一片土地"
and understand that there is
no dividing up this country.
"(尝试去)理解这个国家其实并非是割裂的"
There's no dividing of Jerusalem.
"耶路撒冷不分东西"
There's no handing over
of the biblical homeland,
"我们要做的，不是什么“交出历史家园”"
Tekoa and other villages like that.
"也不是什么撤离定居点"
We're going to have to
find a different model,
"我们需要另辟蹊径"
a model that may not exist,
in Europe anyway.
"这种想法在欧洲也许完全就行不通..."
So the conventional logic that's
applicable to the entire world
"那些通行于世的传统逻辑"
may need some adjustment
for the Holy Land.
"到圣地这里也许要考虑入乡随俗，对吧。"
It always has.
"从来都是如此。"
All the rather beautiful things
you speak eloquently about
Simon: "你刚才滔滔不绝说的那些美好愿景"
may indeed be felt,
if not with a biblical text,
"如果不是带着圣经字眼， 我想也许连巴勒斯坦人"
by the Palestinians as well.
"都会真切的感同身受"
So I don't know what to say.
Tzvi:"好吧，我还真不知道说啥好了..."
It seems to me like, yeah,
we're arguing roots.
"看起来好像我们又开始寻根了..."
Whose roots are deeper?
"(在这片土地上，阿♥拉♥伯人和犹太人)到底谁的根比较深"
I'd just like to say
my roots are here too.
"反正我的根在这里就对了。"
There's been a dramatic shift
in Israel over the past decades.
许多以色列人的思想在过去数十年间发生巨变
The secular, outward-looking
Israel I remember
我印象中基布兹里产生的那种世俗外向的
from my days in Beit HaEmek
新犹太思想，在宗教和民族主义的影响下
has been eclipsed by one that
insists, in the name of religion,
在日益严峻的恐怖威胁之下
nationalism or security,
已经变得黯然失色，许多人开始转向主张
on separation and difference.
隔离主义和区别对待.
'The Israeli novelist David Grossman
has tackled these issues
以色列小说家David Grossman在其写作生涯中
'throughout his life as a writer.
就一直在尝试反映这类问题
'He believes they stem from the very
roots of Jewish experience.'
他相信这样的巨变源自犹太人的各种自身经历
..Euphrates to the sea.
Simon:"...从幼发拉底河到波斯湾"
I mean, we talked to a settler
from Tekoa the other day
"我是说，前两天我们采访的一个Tekoa定居者"
who got a kind of dreamy look
in his eye when he said,
"还在满眼恍惚的说什么---"
"Of course, you know,
"当然啦，你看---"
"where the tribe of Gad was,
one day..." and so on,
"那个某某地以前是伽得部的领土，结果有一天....怎样怎样的..."
[Tribe of Gad 迦得支派,古代以色列部落的一支]
and those borders
are kind of set out
"那些理想中的边界在《创世记》"
very extravagantly in Genesis.
"里面是有各种华丽的记载"
But they're not the borders
of a defensible home.
"可是在现实中并不合情理，也难以防御"
Do you think
that's part of the problem?
"你觉得这是当今问题的原因之一吗？"
These are borders of a dream. Yeah.
David Grossman:"这种梦想中的边界"
Of deep religious belief.
"来自于根深蒂固的宗教信仰"
In the years that Israel exists,
"从以色列建国自立"
in the 65, almost,
years of our sovereignty,
"到6日战争，边界扩张到最大"
our borders have moved and shifted.
"我们的边界是一直在变化移♥动♥之中的"
We invaded others.
"我们也侵入他国"
There was all the time
this ambiguity
"边界问题一直含混不清"
of where the border is.
"到底边界在哪一直争议重重。"
I wonder, I ask myself,
why it is like that?
"所以我一直在问自己，原因到底何在？"
Probably it has to do something
with our attraction
"也许和我们犹太民族的"
as a people to the abstract.
"抽象思维特质有关"
You know, we have invented
the abstract God.
"你看，我们发明了抽象的上帝...对吧"
But it's not only that.
"但是，不仅仅如此"
For 2,000 years, you know,
Jews lived in Spain and Morocco
"2000年来， 犹太人不管离散在世界何处，西班牙也好，摩洛哥也好"
and Egypt and Yemen, and they had
their concrete, everyday life there,
"或者是埃及和也门那些地方，犹太人虽然身居异地"
but at the same time,
the essence of their life,
"可是同时，决定他们生活的内核"
the essence of the meaning
of their being,
"决定他们身为犹太人的意义和本质要素"
was in a totally different,
remote place.
"却远在天边"
In the end of the east,
there in Jerusalem, in Zion.
"一路向东，在那遥远的耶路撒冷，在锡安山下..."
And in the Torah.
In the Torah, in the Talmud,
Simon:"还在圣经里"
David:"没错，在圣经里， 在《塔木德经》里"
they created an enormous body
of existence that was all imaginary,
"他们全靠想像来筑起庞大的精神家园"
all in the mind,
and I think part of our tragedy is
"根本就是靠想的。所以我觉得犹太人的悲剧之处--"
that when we already
came here to this place,
"在于即使我们已经回到故国"
to our home,
we still flirt with this abstraction.
"我们从精神层面上依旧'游走'于现实与想像之间"
We still... We are here,
"我们依旧...怎么说，我们是回来了"
but it's always possible
for us to be out of here.
"可是我们再次流离的可能性似乎永难消除"
You know, it's always
possible for us to exist
"当然我们历来都有可能做到"
in the sphere of the imagination,
of spirituality.
"仅凭着想像与精神层面的东西来生存"
Peace can...root our being,
"但是，只有和平才能让我们真正扎根于此。"
can make it more solid.
"也只有和平能够让我们脚踏实地。"
Today in Israel, the distance
between dream and reality