神迹待证（2021）

在这里做了什么？
and did something over here?
偶然事件不等于神迹
Chance event doesn't equal miracle.
[克雷格] 自发性缓解基本上是指
[Craig] Spontaneous remission is basically
某些病症明显地自行痊愈
when something heals on its own apparently,
我们对此暂时无法给出自然的解释
and we have no ready, natural explanation for it.
没有其他合适的称谓
We don't have any other thing to call it.
所以我们就称之为自发性缓解
So we call it a spontaneous remission.
[迈克尔] 我们知道肿瘤和癌症
[Michael] We know that tumors and cancers
偶然确实会自然消退
do go away naturally just by chance.
迈克尔·舍默 哲学博士
科学史 《怀疑论者》杂♥志♥
有一定比例的癌症会自行消失 这个比例
A certain percentage of, depending on which kind of cancer,
因不同癌症而异 我们不知道原因
they just go away, we don't know why.
没人知道为什么身体会自愈
No one knows why the body just heals itself.
人体真的很擅长这个
It's really good at that.
那我们怎么知道这是自愈还是上帝的神迹呢？
So how do we know if it's that or a miracle from God?
你怎么知道哪个是正确答案？
How can you tell which is the right answer?
[盖瑞] 他们说存在自发性缓解
[Gary] And they say, well there's spontaneous remissions.
是 可能经过四个月 受过零星的治疗
Yeah, over maybe four months with a little bit of treatment,
这是我们没想到的
that we didn't expect.
如果你执意要说是自发性缓解的话 好吧
Okay, if you wanna call out spontaneous remission.
但我说的是三天前刚做过检查的人
But I'm talking about the person was checked three days ago.
这个人昨晚参加了一个祷告会
The person went to a prayer meeting last night
有人按手在他身上 为他祷告
and had hands laid on him and was prayed for.
今天的检查结果就不一样了
And today the test showed a different thing
三天前还在那里呢
that was there three days ago.
证据越来越表明这是神迹
The evidence starts mounting that this is theistic.
所以在初期教会中 他们因为
So in the early church, they believed the gospel
兰迪·克拉克 哲学博士
神学
神迹奇事而相信福音
because of signs and wonders.
然后相信这本书是上帝的话语
And then believed that this book was the Word of God.
但他们并不是一开始就相信这本书是上帝的话语
But they didn't start believing the book's the Word of God,
然后再由此相信耶稣的
and then went from that to faith in Jesus.
他们是通过伴随着神迹奇事的
They came to faith in Jesus through preaching
传道而相信耶稣的
with signs and wonders that accompanying,
然后才开始相信
and then put their faith in, now we believe
这是神的话
this is the Word of God.
[克雷格] 根据皮尤2006年左右的一项权威
[Craig] According to a very respectable Pew survey
调查显示 仅在10个国家中
around 2006, they found that in 10 countries alone
当地五旬节派和灵恩派
and among Pentecostal and Charismatic Christians
基♥督♥徒群体里就有约2亿人
in those 10 countries alone, roughly 200 million people
声称见证过神迹医治
claim to have witnessed divine healing.
此外 在非灵恩派基♥督♥徒中
In addition to that, somewhere around 39% of Christians
也有约39%的人
who did not claim to be Charismatic,
声称见证过神迹医治
claim to have witnessed divine healing.
这仅仅是10个国家的数据
That's just 10 countries.
我们所说的是数以亿计的人
We're talking about hundreds of millions of people
声称见证过神迹性医治
who claim to have witnessed divine healing.
在这些人中 有许多人并非一开始
Among those, many people did not start
就有基♥督♥教背景 而是通过神迹医治
with Christian premises, but were converted through
的经历接受了信仰
their experiences with divine healing.
五旬节 灵恩运动始于1901年，当时人们声称发生了神迹。
自此以后，该运动在全球范围内发展到5亿人。*
在过去的20年里，中国近50%的基♥督♥徒都是因为见证医治而接受
信仰的。**
*Missio-meterics 2006 **中国基♥督♥教协会
女王大学
病理学与分子医学系
女王大学 - 加拿大安大略
[伊莱贾] 所以你在渥太华工作后
[Elijah] So you took a job in Ottawa
遇到了一个特殊的案例
and a special case came across your desk.
你能描述一下事情经过吗？
Could you describe what happened?
有人请我以盲证的身份评估一组
I was asked if I would examine a set of bone marrows
贾卡琳·达芬 神学博士 哲学博士
血液学 科学史
骨髓样本
as a blind witness.
换句话说 我只能看血涂片
In other words, read the slides,
观察骨髓
look at the bone marrow,
但我无法获知患者的
but I could not be told anything about
任何临床信息
what had happened to the patient.
我先拿起来自最早期骨髓的
I began by picking up the first blood slide
第一份血涂片
from the earliest bone marrow.
我当即就看出这是一例严重的白血病
And I saw right away that it was a terrible case
急性原始粒细胞白血病
of leukemia, acute myeloblastic leukemia,
在当时属于已知最凶险的
which at that time was the worst kind of leukemia
白血病类型
that we knew.
即便接受治疗 患者的中位生存期也只有18个月左右
And its median survival with treatment was about 18 months.
我猜测这位不幸的患者已经去世
I assumed this poor person was dead.
我对自己解读骨髓的能力很有信心
I was confident in my reading of the marrow
她已经有过第一次缓解
that she had had a first remission
因为有三四份骨髓
because there were three or four marrows
显示缓解状态
that were in remission.
看起来完全正常
They were completely normal.
然后我看到她的白血病又复发了
And then I could see that her leukemia was coming back.
如果复发 通常就意味着治不好了
Usually if you relapse, you're considered incurable.
所以我从那时起推断她一定已经不在人世
So I assumed from that point on that she must be dead.
尽管如此 骨髓显示她竟然
Nevertheless, she got treated a second time
接受了第二次的治疗
and the bone marrow showed me that.
我能从骨髓里看到化疗的
I could see the effect of the chemotherapy
效果 这非常明显
in the bone marrow, it was quite obvious.
所以她之前有过缓解 又复发了
So she'd had a remission, she relapsed,
她又接受了治疗 你看
she got treated again, and lo and behold,
她的病情又好转了
she went into remission again.
所以我继续解读那堆骨髓
So I continued reading through the stack of bone marrows,
认定她在一两个月内
fully expecting that within a month or two
会再度复发
she was going to relapse again.
因为缓解期通常会越来越短
Because remissions get shorter and shorter.
这几乎是临床血液学界的铁律
It's almost like a biblical edict in clinical hematology.
尤其是在70年代末
Especially in the late '70s.
但进入第二次缓解期后
Well into the second remission,
骨髓的状态就停止了
the bone marrows just stopped
它们仍然处于缓解期
and they're still in remission.
当我把这份报告交给我的同事时
And as I handed this report to my colleague,
我说 好吧 这是什么？
I said, okay so what is this?
是诉讼 还是神迹？
Is this a lawsuit or is it a miracle?
她说 这是个神迹
And she said, it's a miracle
病人现在还活着
and the patient is still alive.
我简直不敢相信为什么会有人想要做
I just couldn't believe why anybody would want to do
宗座文书院书♥记♥官
如此详尽的调查
such a detailed investigation.
直到我收到蒙特利尔
The check for payment came on the account
灰衣修女会的付款支票
of The Grey Nuns of Montreal.
所以这项工作实际上是天主教的
So this work was actually a miracle investigation
一项神迹调查？
by the Catholic church?
是的 身为一名历史学家 这让我
Yeah, that filled me with fascination
非常着迷 因为有这样一个
in my guise as a historian, that there was this process
古老的程序
and it was an ancient process
而现代科学能够参与其中
and that modern science could be part of it.
那么 如果怀疑论者反驳说
Well, what about the skeptic who would push back
癌症有时存在自发性缓解
and tell you that there are spontaneous remissions
的情况呢？
in cancer sometimes?
这种特殊形式的白血病一般不会
This particular form of leukemia is generally not.
事实上 我从未听说过一个自发性缓解的
In fact, I've never heard of a case of spontaneous
病例 当然是在没有治疗的情况下
remission, certainly in the absence of treatment.
如今 我们可以考虑通过
Nowadays we can talk about curing them
骨髓移植治愈它们
with a bone marrow transplant.
但在她接受治疗的年代 那是不可能的
But that wasn't possible at the time she was being treated.
这么说 天主教会在调查神迹时
So the Catholic church, when they investigate miracles,
其实相当严谨 而且对科学持开放态度？
they're actually quite thorough and open to science?
对 梵蒂冈会先问 科学能否解释此事？
Yeah, the Vatican asks, does science explain this?
如果存在基于科学的解释
And if there is a science-based explanation for it,
结果也令人欢喜
then it's a happy outcome.
没有人会抱怨结果
Nobody's complaining about the outcome,
但这不会被视为神迹
but it's not gonna be a miracle.
达芬博士从梵蒂冈档案中调查了两个多世纪以来的医治性神迹。
她发现除了一个案例之外，所有案例都采用了当时最先进的科学方法，
可以被证明是奇迹。
当我向天主教听众谈及这项研究时
When I talked to Catholic audiences about this research,