419爆炸案实录（2024）

[史蒂芬.琼斯] 我走过去做了自我介绍。
I said, "Mr. McVeigh,
我说:“麦克维先生，
I've been appointed to represent you."
我被任命为你的诉讼代理人。”
And I think I said,"I'm from Enid, Oklahoma."
我想，我说了，“我来自俄克拉何马州的伊尼德。”
He shook my hand and said,"I heard you were coming."
他握着我的手说:“我听说了，你要来。”
He explained very candidly
why he did what he was accused of.
他非常坦率地解释了，他为什么要做“被指控”的事。
He exhibited some pride
in that he had managed to carry it off.
他为自己成功地完成了这件事，而显得有些骄傲。
He wanted a defense based on necessity.
他是出于“必要性”，才想要一个辩护律师。
Said, "I had to do it
because they were going to kill other American citizens.
他说:“我必须这么做，因为他们要杀害其他美国公民。
They had to be taught a lesson."
必须给他们一个教训。”
And I said, "Well, Tim...tell me why it was necessary
to kill children under the age of six."
我说:“嗯，蒂姆...请告诉我，为什么必须杀害六岁以下的孩子?”
He said, "Well,there were children at Waco."
他说，“嗯，韦科惨案里也有孩子。”
And I said,"Well, that may be true,
but that's not an explanation of the necessity.
我说，“好吧，这可能是真的，但这并不能解释“必要性”。
What that is is revenge."
这就是在报复。”
After that wouldn't go anywhere,
what I was trying to do was to raise a reasonable doubt.
在那之后，就没什么进展了，我想要做的，就是提出“合理怀疑”。
（对于被告罪行有疑问，经过公正彻底的考虑后产生或保留的怀疑，不管有无证据。）
We could argue to the jury the government hasn't proven it.
我们可以向陪审团辩称，政♥府♥没有“证明这一点”。
I'm hopeful that no one will embarrass the state of Oklahoma
我希望，没有人会为难俄克拉何马州政♥府♥，
by doing anything to any party in this case
which would turn this into a three-ring circus.
在这个案件中，对任何一方做任何事情，让这件事，变成一场，“三环圈”。
（史蒂芬.琼斯，1995年五月）
It couldn't be seen as a show trial.
这不能被看作，是一场“政♥治♥审判”。
（一种为了政♥治♥目的而进行的公开审判）
It had to be seen as lawyers vigorously representing him.
这必须被看作是，律师们“积极地”替他伸张权利。
My opposite number was Merrick Garland.
我的诉讼对手，就是梅里克·加兰。
（副总检察长助理）
He's been detained without bond.
他已被拘留，不得保释。
[Toobin] It's important to recognize how Merrick Garland structured
[图宾] 重要的是要认识到梅里克·加兰德
the criminal investigation and trial of McVeigh.
是如何组织对麦克维的刑事调查和审判的。
...testified that the cause of the explosion
...已经被证实，引起爆♥炸♥的原因，
at the Murrah Building was a bomb that was placed inside a Ryder Truck.
是一枚放置在一辆停靠在莫拉大楼旁，莱德物流的卡车里的炸♥弹♥。
（梅里克.加兰德，副总检察长助理）
He had a prosecutor's view in the sense
that he wanted to keep the trial narrow and focused and limited,
他有一个检察官的观点，他想把审判范围缩小，重点集中，
（杰弗里.图宾，《土生土长》一书的作者）
uh, to what was needed to make the case
against first McVeigh and then Nichols.
限制在只对麦克维和尼科尔斯的指控上。
[reporter] Can you give us any estimate of how many people
you still expect to bring additional charges against in this case?
[记者] 您能否估计一下，在这个案件中，您还会对多少人提出额外的指控?
No, I'm sorry.I really have to limit myself
to what happened in the hearing today.
不，对不起。我得把我的注意力，集中在今天听证会上，发生的事情上。
[man] Merrick always kind of kept his finger on the pulse of the case.
[艾坦.戈尔曼] 梅里克总是能把握住案子的脉搏。
（前美国司法部长助理）
You know, I'm not religious,
你知道，我不信仰宗教，
but I did feel during that period of time like,
"Oh, this is why I'm here."
但在那段时间里，我确实觉得，“哦，这就是我在这里的原因。”
I mean, I really felt like I was doing something
that mattered and that was worth doing.
我是说，我真的觉得，我在做一件重要的事，一件值得做的事。
[woman] On April 19th, 1995,the bomb went off,
[贝丝.威尔金斯] 1995年4月19日，炸♥弹♥爆♥炸♥了，
（前美国检察官助理）
I was in the office.
我当时就在办公室。
DOJ wanted to show that the country could give
a fair trial and due process to these individuals.
司法部想要表明，这个国家，可以给这些人，一个公平的审判，和正当的程序。
This was right after the O.J. Simpson case,
where there was such fanfare and media attention.
这是在“OJ·辛普森案”之后，那案子引起如此的轰动和媒体关注。
Merrick wanted this to be all about the crime that had occurred
and holding the individuals accountable.
梅里克希望这一切都是关于“已经发生”的罪行，并追究当事人的责任。
（致大陪审团的起诉书
第一项罪名：阴谋使用大规模杀伤性武器。）
[director] In the original indictment itself, it did say
[导演]在最初的起诉书中，
Tim McVeigh, Terry Nichols,and "others unknown."
确实提到了蒂姆·麦克维、特里·尼科尔斯和“其他不知名人士”。
[Goelman] Why am I so confident we got--?
[戈尔曼] 为什么我这么有信心...？
[director] Why are you so confident?
[导演] 你怎么这么有信心？
Um, the thoroughness of the investigation.
嗯，要把调查进行到底。
FBI interviewed so many people that we could find.
联邦调查局询问了很多，我们能找到的人。
If you wanted to, you know,find somebody who said that,
如果你想，你知道，找到这样的人，
you know,Madonna did the bombing,
就好比，假如麦当娜参与了爆♥炸♥案，
you could find someone like that.
你甚至可以找到像她这样的人。
Both Nichols and McVeigh had big defense teams at taxpayer expense.
尼科尔斯和麦克维都用纳税人的钱，组建了庞大的辩护团队。
And I think their strategies differed.
我认为，他们的策略不同。
Stephen Jones had this whole public relations strategy,
斯蒂芬·琼斯有一套完整的公共关系策略，
where he, you know,traveled around the world
to try to find these "others unknown."
他周游世界，试图找到这些“其他未知的人”。
[Jones] To say that there were others unknown was true.
[琼斯] 要说还有其他未知的（被告），这是真的。
We were accused of being conspiracy theorists,
我们被指责为“阴谋论者”，
but it was the government that alleged there was a conspiracy.
但这是政♥府♥，在声称存在阴谋。
We were just simply arguing over
how large was the conspiracy and who was there.
我们只是在争论，这个阴谋有多大，谁在那里（策划）。
Tim wanted to be seen as,"This was the perfect mission.
蒂姆想让别人觉得，“这是一次完美的任务。
The building was destroyed, people were killed,
“大楼被毁了，人们被杀了，
there will be a revolution.
“就会发生革命了。
I have set the revolution in motion.
“我（麦克维），已经发动了一场革命。
Me. No one else, me. Me, myself, and I."
“是我。没有别人，只有我。除了我自己，还就是我。”
It took probably about...
就这样，大概过了...
seven or eight days for me to start realizing that he was lying.
过了七八天后，我才意识到，他在撒谎。
Repeatedly.
不断地在撒谎。
Probably the first one, I said, "Tim, you've told me that no one else is involved.
可能是第一次，我说，“蒂姆，你告诉过我，没有其他人参与。
So why is the government talking to Michael and Lori Fortier?
那政♥府♥为什么要找迈克尔和洛莉·弗提耶谈话?
What do they know
他们知道什么
that we don't know?"
是我们不知道的？”
He didn't want to reveal who others were.
他不想透露其他人是谁。
He didn't want to solve the mystery.
他不想解开这个谜团。
[Sanders] It was actually my husband, Glenn,who started asking questions.
[桑德斯] 实际上，是我丈夫格伦，开始提出疑问的。
It's consumed our life.
这耗尽我们的生命。
（被害者的祖父，艾伦.维尔布恩）
Our life took a 180-degree turn that day.
那天，使得我们的生活，发生了180度大转弯。
And it probably will never be the same again.
而且，很可能再也不会和以前一样了。
[Sanders] After the bombing,I was so broken.
[凯西.桑德斯] 爆♥炸♥案之后，我很崩溃。
For the first few weeks, I probably sat in a chair and cried.
在最初的几个星期里，我可能坐在椅子上哭。
But when I got out of the chair,we had a dinner at our home
for the families that had lost their children.
但当我能够从椅子上站起来时，我们在家里，为失去孩子的家庭，举♥行♥了晚餐聚会。
[Sanders] The saddest of times.
[桑德斯] 这是最悲伤的时刻。
You get 19 families that lost their children.
19个家庭，失去了他们的孩子。
One of the young mothers said
when she dropped her boy off that morning,
其中一位年轻的母亲说，那天早上她送完儿子，回家时，
that she had seen the bomb squad downtown.
她甚至在市中心，看到了拆弹小组。
We're going, "How do you know it was the bomb squad?"
我们会问，“你怎么知道，那是拆弹小组？”
Finally, very indignantly,
最后，我非常气愤地说，
she said they had big blue letters.
她说，他们上面有蓝色的大写字母。
Then we found a newspaper article from The Panola Watchman.
然后，我们在报纸上找到了一篇，来自《帕诺拉守望者》的文章。
（我记得看见了“拆弹小组”）
It was an interview about this whole office full of people.
这是关于整个办公室的人的采访。
They had been watching the bomb squad in the alleyway.
他们一直在巷子里，监视着拆弹小组。
The next day my husband, Glenn,goes to the fire station.
第二天，我丈夫格伦去了消防站。
The fire chief said,"Oh, no, sir, we had no idea."
消防队长说:“哦，不，先生，我们一点儿都不知道。”
As my husband's leaving,the dispatcher there, he says,
我丈夫离开的时候，那里的调度员说，
"I'm not going to lie for anybody."
“我不会为任何人撒谎。”
He said, "We got a memo in this office last week
to be on high terrorist alert."
他说:“我们上周收到了一份备忘录，要求对恐♥怖♥分♥子♥，保持高度警惕。”
[reporter] The fire department received a call from the FBI
five days before the bombing,warning that
[记者] 在爆♥炸♥发生五天前，消防部门接到了联邦调查局的电♥话♥，警告说，
"there were some people coming through town
they should be on the lookout for."
“有一些人经过市区，他们应该对此多加注意。”
[Sanders] When the fire chief is confronted
with this information, he said,
[桑德斯]当消防队长面对这些信息时，他说，
"You know what,I made a mistake.
It was our bomb squad truck down there."
“你知道吗，我犯了一个错误。那是我们拆弹小组的卡车。”
[reporter] The ATF director told reporters they had taken
some precaution for the second anniversary of the siege in Waco.
[记者] ATF局长告诉记者，他们在韦科遇袭两周年之际采取了一些预防措施。
I was very concerned about that.
我对此非常担心。
(烟酒，武器炸♥药♥管理局局长，约翰.马戈)
We did some things here in headquarters
and in all of our field offices throughout the country
我们在总部和全国各地的办事处做了一些事情，
to try to be more observant.But it was primarily--
试图更加观察敏锐。但它主要是...
We didn't anticipate something like this.
我们没有预料到这样的事情。
We were thinking about,you know, demonstrations and things like that.
我们那时只是在考虑，你懂的，那种示♥威♥之类的事情。
I think, yeah,we should have known
that there was some danger in the building that day
我认为，是的，我们本就应该知道，那天的大楼里，会有某种危险，
due to the fact that April 19th
因为4月19日，
is such a special day to the right wing.
对“右翼分子”来说，是一个特殊的日子。
So you're not somebody that could be characterized
as a conspiracy-theory person,
所以，你不是那种，被人描述为“持阴谋论怀疑者”的人，
in the sense that you feel the federal government was,
在某种意义上，你是否认为联邦政♥府♥
in some way,part of this explosion?
或多或少地，是这次爆♥炸♥案的一部分？
No. Not at all.
不，完全不是。
[Sanders] Glenn and I had so many questions.