419爆炸案实录（2024）

and you're thinking like,"Wait a minute, is this him?"
你会想，“等等，这是他吗?”
He looked like anyone's kid.
他看起来，就像个“邻家男孩”。
Just your normal average Joe.
就是一个“普通人”。
[man] He's got this look in his eyes.
[凯瑞.诺贝尔] 他的眼神是这样的。
（前极端分子）
I believed that in his mind he wanted to look out at the crowd,
我相信在他心里，他想看看外面的人群，
right straight into the cameras,and go,
直接对着镜头，然后说，
"You're goddamn right I did it,
and you're cowards if you don't do the same thing."
“你说得太对了，是我♥干♥的，如果你不做同样的事，你就是懦夫。”
[reporter] There goes McVeigh,the first confirmed arrest...
[记者] 麦克维被带走了，第一个被确认逮捕的...
in the Oklahoma bombing case.
在俄克拉荷马爆♥炸♥案中。
After we had McVeigh in custody,I had McVeigh's father
flown to Oklahoma City to meet with me.
在我们抓拘留麦克维之后，我让麦克维的父亲飞到俄克拉荷马城与我见面。
I asked him, "You know your son.
Who would be involved in this?"
我问他:“你了解你的儿子。谁会参与其中?”
（比尔.麦克维）
And he said, "Terry Nichols and Michael Fortier." Like that.
他说:“特里·尼科尔斯和迈克尔·福捷。” 就像这样。
[Ricks] We learned he had been in basic training
at Fort Benning, Georgia with a couple of guys
[里克斯] 我们了解到，他曾在乔治亚州本宁堡，接受新兵基础训练时，
named Terry Nichols and Michael Fortier.
认识了特里.尼科尔斯和迈克尔.弗提耶。
Terry Nichols was older,
特里·尼科尔斯年纪大一些，
but they had struck up a friendship based on--
on their political beliefs.
但他们在政♥治♥信仰的基础上，建立了友谊。
We then learned Terry Nichols is now living in Kansas.
后来我们得知，特里·尼科尔斯现在住在堪萨斯州。
At his residence, we find the remnants of fertilizer
that was used in the bombing itself.
在他的住所，我们发现了,爆♥炸♥中使用的化肥残留物。
But one of the biggest and most important pieces of information
但其中最大，也是最重要的信息，
is a telephone card sold by a right-wing group called Spotlight.
是右翼组织“聚光灯”出♥售♥的一张电♥话♥卡。
We pretty much were able to trace where they had been
throughout the United States through that calling card.
通过这张电♥话♥卡片，我们几乎可以追踪到，他们在美国的行踪。
We find that Michael Fortier is now living in Arizona.
我们发现迈克尔,弗提耶，现在住在亚利桑那州。
（亚利桑那州 金曼）
[Fortier] I think people are looking right now for somebody to hang.
[弗提耶] 我想，人们现在正在寻找一个可以绞死的人。
Now he may feel like there's nobody on this earth
that is in any way supportive of him.
现在他可能觉得，这个世界上没有人，会以任何方式支持他。
But there is. There is.
但有的。还是有的。
（迈克尔.弗提耶，提莫希.麦克维的朋友）
Everybody should be supportive
of him,because he is an innocent man.
大家本应该都支持他，因为他是一个天真的人。
[Coulson] I interviewed Michael Fortier.
[考尔森] 我采访了迈克尔·弗提耶。
I said to him,"I need your help."
我对他说，“我需要你的帮助。”
And he said,
而他说，
"You don't understand.We're at war."
“你不明白。我们在交战状态。”
I said,"I'd have killed you today.I'd have killed you now
if we were at war.I'd have killed your buddies.
我说，“我今天就该杀了你。如果我们开战，我早就杀你了。我还会杀了你的伙伴。
We're not. You may be at war with your country.
Your country's not at war with you."
“我们不是在交战。你可能在和你的国家交战。你的国家，没有和你交战。”
I do not believe that Tim blew up any building in Oklahoma.
我不相信，蒂姆炸毁了俄克拉何马州的任何建筑。
And then he said to me,"It's about the Constitution."
然后他对我说:“这是关于宪法的。”
I said, "You're right.It is about the Constitution.
Let me tell you what's going to happen.
我说:“你说得对。这关乎宪法。我来告诉你会发生什么。
I'm going to indict you under the Constitution.
I'm going to convict you under the Constitution.
“我要根据宪法，起诉你。我要根据宪法，给你定罪。
We'll handle your appeals under the Constitution.
“我们也会根据宪法，对待你的上诉。
And sooner or later, somebody's going to put you on a gurney
and stick a needle in your arm,and we're going to kill you.
“迟早会有人，把你抬到轮床上，在你胳膊上扎一根针，然后我们就会杀了你。
You better decide if you're on my side or their side."
你最好决定，是站在我这边，还是他们那边。”
[Boettcher] Later on,after McVeigh had been charged,
[博特切尔] 后来，在麦克维被起诉之后，
his attorneys let reporters meet with McVeigh one-on-one.
他的律师允许记者，单独采访麦克维。
The ground rule is this is not an interview,
基本规定是，这不是面谈，
this is kind of a "get to know you."
这是一种“了解你”的方式。
I had covered the first Gulf War,
我报道过第一次海湾战争，
and I knew he had been a veteran of that war.
我知道，他是那场战争的退伍老兵。
And we started talking about the Gulf War,
我们开始谈论海湾战争，
and he kind of lit up because it was something that he could
talk about,that he felt proud of,that he had participated in.
他有点兴奋，因为这是他可以谈论的事情，是他感到自豪的事情，是他参与的事情。
And then I shifted the conversation
to his feelings about the U.S. government.
然后，我把话题转移到，他对美国政♥府♥的看法上。
And I could see a light switch go off in his eyes.
我能看到，他的眼神，仿佛像是灭了一盏灯一样。
And he went cold.
随即，他就变得冷谈了。
And you could see the anger well up.
你可以看到，他的愤怒涌上心头。
And I thought at that point, "This guy for sure did it."
我当时心想，“肯定是这个人干的。”
[Sands] When Tim was identified,
[桑兹] 当蒂姆的身份被确认后，
I just started delving into the far right.
我刚开始研究，极右翼的情况。
I went to Little Rock, Arkansas and did a lot of research there,
我去了阿肯色州的小石城，在那里做了很多研究，
（鲍勃.桑兹，全国广播公♥司♥调查记者）
because back in those days,
因为，回到那段时期，
you had to go actually look at hard paper.
你必须去“故纸堆”中去找。
Turns out way back in 1983,
其实，早在1983年，
this virulent racist by the name of Richard Wayne Snell
这个恶毒的种族主义者，名叫理查德·韦恩·斯内尔
had decided that he wanted to blow up
the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.
他就决定，炸毁俄克拉荷马城的“阿尔弗雷德·P·默拉联邦大厦”。
（该大厦1977年建成使用，纪念出自该城的联邦大♥法♥官阿尔弗雷德·P·默拉）
I was stunned to find out that the far-right movement
wanted to blow up the Murrah Building.
当我发现，“极右翼运动”早就想要炸毁默拉大厦时，我惊呆了。
How come we never heard about that before?
我们以前，怎么没听说过?
第一次波运动
1983年
[man] Stay low! Get down! Whoo!
[男人] 俯身前进！卧倒！哇！
[reporter 1] Pro-gun patriotism is becoming more and more popular
among economically hard-pressed farmers.
[记者1] “赞同持枪自♥由♥的爱国者”们，在经济困难的农民中，越来越受到欢迎。
[reporter 2] Traditionally strong, proud, independent farmers
are losing their farms in record numbers.
[记者2] 大量传统上强壮、自豪、独♥立♥的农民，正在史无前例地，丧失他们的农场。
We think as many as a million family farms
were foreclosed on during the late '70s and early '80s.
我们认为，在70年代末和80年代初，有多达100万个家庭农场被取消赎回权。
(斯图尔特.莱特，《爱国者，政♥治♥和俄城爆♥炸♥案》一书的作者)
- [farmers chanting] No sale! - [Wright] There was anger
against the federal government's exploitation of farmers.
-[农民喊]卖♥♥不出! -[莱特]人们对联邦政♥府♥剥削农民的做法，感到愤怒。
Violence starts to occur in the heartland
暴♥力♥开始在中心地带发生，
（斯蒂芬.琼斯，律师）
because they were desperate.
因为他们绝望了。
When Mr. Nixon was president,
he encouraged farmers to plant fencerow to fencerow.
当尼克松担任总统时，他鼓励农民“汗滴禾下土”地去种植。
And they did.
他们就去种植了。
But then when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan,
但当苏联入侵阿富汗时，
President Carter put an embargo on grain sales to the Soviet Union.
卡特总统禁止向苏联出♥售♥粮食。
And the result was agricultural depression.
结果是，农业一片萧条。
[Ronald Reagan] The federal government mustn't shirk
its responsibility to undo some of the damage that it created.
[罗纳德·里根] 联邦政♥府♥绝不能逃避自己的责任，消除自己造成的一些损害。
We're doing a great deal to help farmers.
我们正在做很多事情，来帮助农民。
But the federal government will not bail out
every farmer hopelessly in debt.
但联邦政♥府♥不会救助，每一个深陷债务的农民。
So today I have vetoed this massive new bailout.
因此，今天我否决了这项大规模的“新救助计划”。
Ronald Reagan basically left the farmers
to-- to, um, just go bankrupt.
罗纳德·里根基本上是让农民，让他们破产。
[farmers chanting] No sale!
[农民喊] 卖♥♥不出！
[Wright] Far-right leaders saw a political opportunity.
[莱特] 极右翼领导人看到了一个“政♥治♥契机”。
The first wave of the patriot movement was able to
successfully mobilize farmers into this far-right movement,
第一波爱国运动，成功地将农民，动员到这场“极右翼运动”中，
and they were willing to take up arms,and some of them did.
他们愿意拿起武器，他们中有些人就这么做了。
[Noble] Everybody in the movement saw the land crisis,farm crisis,
运动中的每个人都看到了土地危机、农业危机，
(凯瑞.诺贝尔，“圣约，圣剑和上帝之臂”组织的前成员)
as the government and major corporations
putting farmers into a financial bind.
因为政♥府♥和主要的大公♥司♥，让农民陷入了财政困境。
Where the government is making war
with the American people and selling us out.
在那里，政♥府♥与美国人♥民♥开战，并出♥卖♥♥♥我们。
I don't want to see our group or any group
forced against their will into a con-- confrontation.
我不想看到，我们的组织或任何组织，违背自己的意愿，被迫陷入对抗。
（1983年的凯瑞.诺贝尔）
I'm a former extremist from a group known as CSA,
我以前是一个极端分子来自一个叫CSA的组织，
the Covenant, the Sword,and the Arm of the Lord
in Northern Arkansas back in the '70s and '80s.
七八十年代，在阿肯色州北部的“圣约，圣剑和上帝之臂”。
[Noble] For me,it was like heaven on earth.
[诺贝尔] 对我来说，那就像人间天堂。
The group was started originally by Jim Ellison
to establish a community based upon the apocalypse.
该组织最初是由吉姆·埃里森发起的，目的是建立一个基于世界末日的社区。
[all] Oh, Hallelujah
[众人]哦，哈利路亚
God began to deal with us about the economic judgment,
collapse, and upheaval that was coming upon all the world.
上帝会和我们共同应对经济审判，崩溃，和即将降笼罩全世界的动荡。
（詹姆斯.“吉姆”艾利森，CSA组织领导人）
And especially on this country.
尤其是对这个国家。
[Noble] He said, "How are you gonna protect yourself
when it collapses and bad people want what you have?"
[诺贝尔] 他说:“当崩溃来临，恶人想要你的东西时，你要如何保护自己？”
[Noble] Basically the Bible says
we have the right to use whatever the enemy uses,
[诺贝尔] 从根本跟上讲，《圣经》上说我们有权使用，敌人使用的任何东西，
and the enemy, of course,is gonna have guns.
而敌人，当然，他们会有枪。
（1983年的凯瑞.诺贝尔）
Fire!
开枪！
[Noble] We had never talked about guns before.
[诺贝尔] 我们以前从来没有谈过枪。
We had never talked about defense.
我们从来没有谈过防御。
CSA组织在训练
[Noble] Over the next 18 months,
[诺贝尔] 在接下来的18个月里，
we started buying guns,buying military equipment,
我们开始买♥♥枪，买♥♥军事装备，
and we trained so well that a magazine in those days
我们训练得非常好，以至于当时的一本杂♥志♥
called us the number one civilian SWAT team in the United States.
称我们是美国最好的“平民特警队”。
The church kind of went to the background.
教会，在某种程度上，退居幕后。