419爆炸案实录（2024）

to lay out a historical record of the entire movement
展现整个事态发展的历史记录，
or in everything that McVeigh ever did in his life.
也不是为了记录麦克维一生中所做的一切。
That's what history books are for,
and that's a different-- different goal.
这就是历史书的意义所在，这是一个...不同的目标。
Here, it was to prove the elements of the crime
and hold him accountable.
在这个审判中，这是为了证明犯罪的要素，并追究他的责任。
The criminal law can only do so much.
刑法只能做这么多。
And we got everybody who was legally, criminally
responsible for the bombing.
我们找到了，所有对爆♥炸♥负有法律和刑事责任的人。
There-- there could have been other people who were...
可能，还有其他人...
If we had the evidence,
如果我们有证据，
could've been criminally culpable.
可能会有追究刑事责任。
But then there's a whole universe of people
who were not criminally culpable
但还有一大群人，他们没有刑事责任，
but who bear some measure of moral responsibility.
但却承担着一定程度的道德责任。
[Sands] Tim McVeigh was part of the group
that wanted to declare war on America.
[桑兹] 蒂姆.麦克维，是想要向美国宣战的团体中的一员。
The government thought,
政♥府♥曾经这样想，
"We tried to round them all up once
with this sedition trial in '88,and we blew it.
“我们曾试图在1988年的一次针对煽动叛乱审判中，把他们都抓起来，但我们搞砸了。
（1988年在阿肯色州史密斯堡的那次审判，10名白人♥权♥力运动分子被告，被判无罪）
We can't do that again.
我们不能再这样了。
We have to limit this."
我们必须限制这种情况。”
And the American people are none the wiser
而美国广大人♥民♥对此一无所知，
about how ugly and how serious some Americans are
那就是，有一些美国人，他们如此丑陋地，如此认真地
about destroying this nation.
想要毁掉这个国家。
[Boettcher] We always believed that there had to be more people involved.
[博特切尔] 我们一直认为应该有更多的人参与进来。
We started talking to militia groups,
我们开始和民兵组织谈判，
people who may have supported them.
那些可能支持他们的人。
These extreme beliefs just weren't held by a few people.
持有这些极端信仰的人，并不是少数。
Actually, there were a lot of people out there
who felt the way McVeigh did.
事实上，有很多人和麦克维有同样的感受。
So we would go to places like Elohim City
in far eastern Oklahoma,
所以，我们会去俄克拉何马州最东边的耶洛因城，
（希伯来语中上帝之城的意思）
where we believed that McVeigh had passed through.
我们认为，麦克维曾经从那里经过。
[Boettcher] They were following Christian identity.
[博特切尔] 他们遵循基♥督♥徒的身份。
Their belief was anything that wasn't white was subhuman.
他们认为，只要是非白人，都是次等人。
If you just want to boil down to it,that's what it was.
如果你想把它做个归结，那它就是这个。
[Coulson] Elohim City is key to a lot of things here.
[考尔森] 这座耶洛因城，是很多事情的关键。
I think McVeigh definitely was at Elohim City.
我觉得，麦克维肯定去过耶洛因城。
ATF had an informant that put him there, Carol Howe.
烟酒火器局的线人，把他送到那里的，卡罗尔·豪。
[Boettcher on recording] NBC has learned that the community
was penetrated by this woman,
[博特切尔的录音] 全国广播公♥司♥了解到，这个社区，被这个女人渗入了，
Carol Howe,a paid government informant,
卡罗尔·豪，一名受政♥府♥雇佣的“线人”，
who was gathering information on possible threats
against the U.S. government.
她正在搜集，有可能威胁到美国政♥府♥的信息。
The government acknowledges in federal documents
that she was their informant.
政♥府♥在联邦文件中，承认她是他们的“线人”。
[Toobin] Carol Howe was an Oklahoma aristocrat.
[图宾] 卡罗尔·豪是俄克拉何马州的“贵族”。
Her father was the CEO of a Fortune 500 company in Tulsa.
她的父亲是一家位于塔尔萨的，财富500强公♥司♥的首席执行官。
But when she was just into her 20s,
但当她刚20多岁时，
she got caught up with some really crazy right-wing folks.
她和一群疯狂的“右翼分子”混在了一起。
At the same time,she became an informant
for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
与此同时，她成为烟酒和火器局的线人。
We started following the trail of neo-Nazis,
我们开始追踪新纳粹分子的踪迹，
and she had a neo-Nazi boyfriend,
她有个新纳粹男友，
a guy named Dennis Mahon.
一个叫丹尼斯·马洪的人。
The faster this country falls,
这个国家衰落得越快，
the faster we'll be able to rebuild a nation for ourself.
我们就能越快重建一个，属于我们自己的国家。
[Boettcher on recording]Remarkably, Howe and Mahon appeared
together in a 1994 German television interview.
[博特切尔录音] 值得注意的是，豪和马洪一起出现在1994年的德国电视采访中。
Howe gave the government information before the bombing
on alleged threats by others in Elohim City,
豪在爆♥炸♥发生前，向政♥府♥提供了有关耶洛因城其他人威胁的信息，
including this man,Andreas Strassmeir.
包括这个人，安德里亚斯.斯特拉斯梅尔。
According to federal documents,
根据联邦文件，
Strassmeir was the military training officer for Mahon's organization.
斯特拉斯梅尔是“马洪组织”的军事训练官。
Strassmeir was last seen in Germany.
斯特拉斯梅尔最后一次露面，是在德国。
This is one of Carol Howe's reports to her ATF handler.
这是卡罗尔·豪给烟酒火管局主管的报告之一。
She's talking about Andreas Strassmeir at Elohim City.
她说的是，耶洛因城的安德烈亚斯·斯特拉斯梅尔。
"Andy leads the young adults in guerrilla warfare and tactical maneuvers.
“安迪带领年轻人进行游击战和战术演习。
His 'plans,' quote,
这里，引用自他的计划，
are to forcibly act to destroy the U.S. government
with direct actions and operations,
是通过直接行动和运作，强行摧毁美国政♥府♥，
assassinations, bombings,mass shootings, et cetera.
暗♥杀♥，爆♥炸♥，大规模枪击等等。
He believes we cannot out-breed the enemy
so we must use mass genocide against them.
他认为我们无法在生育上超越敌人，所以我们必须对他们进行大规模“种族灭绝”。
And of course the biggest enemy--
当然，最大的敌人是...
the U.S. government."
美国政♥府♥。”
She reported that there was an increasing discussion
of violence and there was a discussion about blowing up a building,
她报告说，关于暴♥力♥的讨论越来越多，还有关于炸毁一栋大楼的讨论，
（克拉克.布鲁斯特，卡罗尔.豪的律师）
even to the point that they made a visit
to Oklahoma City and drove around.
甚至他们还去了俄克拉荷马城，开车兜风。
There wouldn't have probably been an Oklahoma City bombing,
in my view,
在我看来，俄克拉荷马城可能不会发生爆♥炸♥，
had Elohim City been investigated more diligently.
如果,当初对耶洛因城进行更认真的调查的话。
[Sands] Carol Howe knew what was happening
and she told them she had seen a guy.
[桑兹] 卡罗尔.豪知道发生了什么，她告诉他们，她看到了一个男人。
They identified him as Tim Tuttle.
他们确认，他是蒂姆·塔特尔。
At the time,she wouldn't have known anything about
who this guy was.
那时候，她根本不知道这个人是谁。
But after the bombing,
但是在爆♥炸♥之后，
she knew it was Tim McVeigh.She had seen his pictures.
她知道，就是蒂姆·麦克维。她看过他的画像。
Tim was walking through camp with Andreas Strassmeir,
蒂姆和安德里亚斯·斯特拉斯梅尔一起穿过营地，
just some guy named Tim Tuttle walking with Andy the German.
还有一个叫蒂姆·塔特尔的人和德国人安迪一起走。
Andy Strassmeir was an important person
that I thought needed to be interviewed.
安迪.斯特拉斯梅尔是一个很重要的人，我认为，他需要接受采访。
（理查德.雷纳，麦克维辩护团队的调查员）
I was able to meet with Strassmeir.
我和斯特拉斯梅尔见了面。
And I asked a simple question. I said,
我问了一个简单的问题。我说,
"Why is it that there are 302s,FBI 302s, interviews,
“为什么会有302号♥证物，联邦调查局的302号♥报告，对所有这些
with all of these different radical people...
不同的激进分子的采访...
but they don't have you?"
但他们没有抓你?”
As I expected, you know,he-- he knew nothing.
正如我所料，他什么都不知道。
He might have met Tim at a gun show.
他可能是在枪♥支♥展上，认识蒂姆的。
Couldn't remember.
记不起来了。
[Strassmeir] I forgot about this person...
[斯特拉斯梅尔] 我忘了这个人...
当我在图尔萨的展销会上逛的时候，我几乎都忘掉了这个人
你也知道，他是我见过的众多的人中的一个。
但有可能，他还记得我，而且他还有一张我们教会的电♥话♥卡。
One of the things that really concerned me
was when I got a hold of McVeigh's phone records.
真正让我担心的一件事，是当我拿到麦克维的电♥话♥记录时。
He called Elohim City two minutes after calling
the Ryder Truck company,
他打电♥话♥给莱德物流卡车公♥司♥，两分钟后，又打电♥话♥给耶洛因城，
and he asked to speak to Andreas Strassmeir.
他要求和安德烈亚斯·斯特拉斯梅尔通话。
我不清楚，我只知道他给我打了好多电♥话♥。
还告诉人们，说有事情将要发生了。
The FBI interviewed thousands of people regarding Timothy McVeigh,
联邦调查局就蒂莫西·麦克维，询问了数千人，
including his second-grade schoolteacher.
包括他的二年级老师。
But they didn't think it was important
to talk to Andreas Strassmeir.
但他们认为和安德里亚斯.斯特拉斯梅尔的谈话，并不重要。
He wound up leaving the country and went back to Germany.
他最后离开了这个国家，回到了德国。
It was like more than a year later
that the FBI called and did a telephone interview with him.
大约一年多以后，联邦调查局打电♥话♥给他，对他进行了电♥话♥采访。
[Coulson] Strassmeir,there's controversy about him.
[考尔森] 斯特拉斯梅尔，关于他有争议。
Some people think he's a source of the Israelis,
有些人认为他是以色列人的线人，
and some people think he's a source of the West German government.
有些人认为，他是西德政♥府♥的线人。
At the time,
在当时，
the German government was very unhappy with the FBI.
德国政♥府♥对联邦调查局非常不满。
Because we have guidelines on how we investigate domestic terrorism.
因为我们有调查国内恐♥怖♥主♥义♥的指导方针。
They're pretty limiting.
它们相当有限制。
And so they wanted to try to get their own information.
所以，他们想要获取自己的情报。
Somebody should have looked at it.
应该有派人过来看看情况。
I personally was responsible for searching
the intelligence files here in the United States,
我个人负责在美国搜索情报文件，
（贝丝.威尔金森，前美国检察官助理）
and there's no evidence there was foreign involvement.
没有证据表明有外国势力参与。
McVeigh had met him at a gun show and called him,
you know,two weeks before he engaged in the bombing.
麦克维在一次枪♥支♥展上认识了他，给他打了电♥话♥，就在他参与爆♥炸♥案的两周前。
That doesn't show there's any connection.
这并不表明，有任何联♥系♥。
He met lots of people at gun shows.
他在枪♥支♥展销会上，认识了很多人。
[Jones] There was certainly evidence
that Tim McVeigh had probably been at Elohim City.
[琼斯]有确凿的证据表明，蒂姆·麦克维很可能在耶洛因城。
He kept denying that he had been there,
他一直否认他去过那里，
but yet, he was stopped, I believe,
但是，我相信，他被拦下来了，
by an Arkansas highway patrolman on a road that led to Elohim City.
是在通往耶洛因城的路上，被一名阿肯色州的高速公路巡警拦下的。
There were people that said he had been there.
有人说他去过那里。
[Reyna] I told him, I said,"Tim, you know and I know...
[雷纳] 我告诉他，我说:“蒂姆，你知道，我也知道...
that you were used." He didn't say anything.