BBC：上帝如何造就英国人（2012）

A sense of a strong,
national framework that has survived
能够经历任何的历史磨难而不倒下
everything that history
could throw at it.
在英格兰大大小小的村镇
教会的影响依然无比强大
In towns and villages across England,
the Church still has
an unparalleled presence.
因为上有英国国教会的存在
Because there is
an established church,
所以英国每平方英尺的土地
仍然属于英国国教会教区的势力范围
every square foot of English soil
remains in an Anglican parish.
几个世纪以来,这个综合性组织
一直在自我完善
For centuries, this umbrella
organisation has been
向这个国家上上下下
各式各样的社区团体
learning how to offer
very different communities
提供一套共享的核心价值观
up and down the nation
a set of shared core values -
一种超越教派或信仰的公共道德意识
a public moral consciousness that
goes beyond denomination or creed.
今天,在我们这个巨大的
有时严重分♥裂♥的社区里
Today in our hugely varied
and sometimes badly divided
communities,
真的需要有一个当地的权威
它的行为处事应遵循如下原则
there's a real need
for a local arbiter that can act
代表不同宗教信仰的人们
on behalf of people of different
faiths and none,
社团可以不分宗教信仰而团结在一块
which communities can unite
around irrespective of their faith.
唯有英国国教会能达到这个要求
The Church of England is uniquely
placed to meet that need.
它办得到吗?
But can it?
伦敦 兰贝斯宫
我来找教会的当家人谈谈
I've come to talk to
the head of the Church
看看教会是如何
about how it has been trying -
在大风大浪中吃一堑长一智的
sometimes only to
get its fingers badly burned.
坎特伯雷大主教
罗恩.威廉姆斯博士
The Archbishop of Canterbury,
Dr Rowan Williams,
引发了一场激烈的争论
有些议论似乎支持
sparked a huge row with comments
which seemed to support
将伊♥斯♥兰♥教教法(沙里亚法)引入英国法律
the introduction of
Islamic Sharia law into British law.
喋喋不休的争论喧宾夺主
大主教想要解决更重要的事
The row was a complete distraction
from the far more important issues
反而没人去关心了
which the Archbishop was tackling.
他之所以对伊♥斯♥兰♥教教法发表看法
In his comments on Sharia law,
我认为罗恩.威廉姆斯
是在想办法解决
I think Rowan Williams was trying
to address the problems
当今英国存在的问题
让大家一起来加以讨论
of contemporary England
and getting us to talk about them.
这种做法英国国教会
已经延续了数世纪之久
That is what the Church of England
has done for centuries,
以后还应该坚持下去
and what it should go on doing.
你对伊♥斯♥兰♥教教法的评论
引起轩然大♥波♥,这点我非常感兴趣
I was very interested by
the kerfuffle around your comments
on Sharia law.
- 感觉还好吧
- 还好
- And it's not so much...
- So was I!
...你说的并不太多,还有人
...it's not so much what you said
and what...
对你的看法予以反驳
the things people said back,
但实际上这种争论场面是可以有的
but the fact that there could be
such a fuss about such comments.
你的感受如何?回忆一下好吗?
What's your feeling about that,
looking back on it?
我有一种很强烈的感受,那就是
作为英国国教会的大主教
I think there was quite a strong
feeling that the archbishop
应该为了维护英国国教
of the established church
ought to be defending
而去对抗其他宗教
the established church
against other religions,
然而,我认为,假设我作为
英国国教会的大主教
whereas I think I was working on
the assumption that part of my job
担当的部分职责是关心
整个社会是如何
as archbishop in the established
church was to ask how the society
友好对待其内部的少数民族的
as a whole can be hospitable
towards the minorities within it,
那么我的角色就是中间人
把人们拉到对话中来
that that's the role of brokering,
the role of drawing people
into a conversation.
因而我觉得在这方面
人们的预期有相当大的偏差
So I think there was quite
a mismatch of expectation there.
实际上说来奇怪
And actually, in a rather odd way,
大主教应该捍卫英国国教会的尊严
the idea that the archbishop ought
to be speaking in defence
反对其他宗教的这种观念
of the established church
against others is not one that many
并没有得到教会中许多同行的认同
within the established church
would recognise,
部分原因是因为他们
在基层时得到过一些经验
partly because of the sort
of experience they have
at the grass roots
比如在伯明翰或者是莱斯特
或者是布拉德福德等社区
in the communities of Birmingham
or Leicester or Bradford, whatever.
我认为世俗主义者会这么讲
I'm thinking of secularists
who would say
英国国教会已经没地位了
现在什么也不是了
the Church of England has no place,
it has no role now.
如果从等式,从社会生活中
抽掉英国国教会的话
So what would happen if you
subtracted the Church of England
会发生什么事呢?会有什么不同吗?
from the equation, from society now,
what difference would it make?
我认为至少有两种层次上的不同
I think it would make a difference
at two levels at least.
其一,纯粹是关于个人
或者那些当牧师的人
One of those levels is the purely
personal or pastoral level.
找不到什么地方你可以去
There would be no obvious
place to go to, let's say,
纪念伦敦七七爆♥炸♥案的受害者
也找不到一处地方
to commemorate the victims of
the 7/7 bombings, no obvious place
可以去倾诉心灵上的创伤
to go locally when people
have been through a trauma.
说到更宽泛的层次,更高的层次
At the broader level,
the higher level,
我认为,人们会忽略的是
从最广泛的意义上说
I think what would be missed is some
sense that the religious perspective
宗教观点应是公众话题的固有组成部分
in the broadest sense of all is
a proper part of public discussion.
它不是要唯我独尊
也没有好为人师
It's not there to dominate, it's not
there to give all the answers,
但人们也意识到
宗教观点是人类阅历的
but it's there recognising
that here is a hugely important
一个非常重要的方面
如果不考虑公开讨论
dimension of human experience,
which if you don't
那它就会转入地下状态
factor into public discussion
will as it were go underground
变得更加顽固,更加自闭,更加问题多多
and become more bigoted,
more introverted, more problematic.
让公众去讨论吧
实际上人人都是赢家
Bring it into the public discussion
and actually everybody wins.
大主教将自己看做社会上
The Archbishop sees his role
as a broker of all religious
所有宗教观点的中间人
而不是某个教会的卫道士
points of view in society, rather
than as a defender of one church.
他不想唯我独尊
He doesn't want the religious
voice to dominate
而是真正想让宗教之声为人所闻
but he does want it to be heard.
他认为在多元化的社会里
有必要让人们之间的距离
He thinks it's essential to bringing
people together in a plural society.
他相信他的教会在这点上
已经很好地超过人家了
And he believes that his church is
ideally positioned to take the lead.
兰彻斯特大教堂 911十周年祭
实际上,英国国教会一直在操办这件事
It is in fact the kind of work
in which the Church of England
is constantly engaged.
我们要承认,在形形色♥色♥的社团里
Recognising that in our complex
societies there are many
有很多不同的信仰,价值观,道德体系
different beliefs, values
and moral systems and that's why
因此,在座的不同信仰和背景的人们
it's such a privilege and a joy
that people of different faiths