大宪章史话（2015）

向布♥什♥政♥府♥提出诉讼，
for unlawful detention without trial.
指控未经审判的非法拘禁。
One of the key lawyers,David remes, visited the camp.
关键律师之一大卫·雷梅斯参观了该营地。
You were shocked by Guantanamo?
你被关塔那摩震惊了?
I was shocked, I was overwhelmed... It was...
我很震惊，我不知所措...这简直是...
The men were so abject.
这些人是这样的可怜。
They were in despair and the power exercised over them
他们处于绝望之中，监狱当局对他们
by the prison authorities was absolute.
施加的权力是绝对的。
Were you ashamed?
你感到羞耻吗?
No, I was outraged.
不，我很愤怒。
You know, we come here,we see those proud phrases
你们知道，我们来到这里，我们看到那些骄傲的词句，
in which Liberty and freedom and right and god and nature
比如：解放、自♥由♥、权利、上帝和自然，
are plastered over these huge marble monuments.
被涂在这些巨大的大理石纪念碑上。
Didn't the hypocrisy stink in your nostrils?
难道你鼻孔里，嗅不到虚伪的气息吗？
Yes.
嗅到了。
And what did you do?
你做了什么?
I represented these men in court,
我在法庭上，为这些人辩护，
I fought to have them released, and...
我努力让他们获释，还有...
I hope that the lawyers' efforts and communications
我希望律师们的努力和沟通
had an influence.I believe they did.
产生了影响。我相信他们做到了。
The supreme court did rule
最高法♥院♥确实裁定
that detention without trial was unconstitutional,
未经审判的拘留，是违宪的，
repeatedly citing magna carta.
这里反复引用了《大宪♥章♥》。
But victory was short-lived.
但胜利是短暂的。
A lesser appeals court bypassed the ruling
一个下级上诉法♥院♥，驳回了裁决，
by declaring that - in time of war, ordinary rules do not apply.
他们声称 -平常的规则，不适用于战争时期。
The supreme court apparently ruled in favour of these men and yet,
nothing has been done.
最高法♥院♥显然做出了有利于这些被“关押人员”的裁决，然而，一切都不管用。
Guantanamo is still there.
关塔那摩仍然存在。
The shame is still there.
耻辱仍然存在。
If I'd been able to sit down with one of those judges
如果我能和那个上诉法♥院♥的一位法官
of the court of appeal, how would they have justified it?
坐下来谈谈，他们是怎么证明，这一反驳是合法的呢?
Well, the principle would be that the courts have no function,
根本就是，法♥院♥没有影响职能，
no valid role to play in executive decisions in the context of war.
在战争背景下，对行政机关的决策，没有有效的影响。
At the same time that remes was fighting his Guantanamo cases,
与此同时，在雷梅斯与关塔纳摩案件作斗争的同时，
britain, too, was facing a parallel challenge
英国也面临着对其法律和宪法
to its legal and constitutional integrity.
完整性的挑战。
In 2008, at the height of the crisis,senior politician
2008年，在危机最严重的时候，资深政♥治♥家、
and then shadow home secretary, David Davis, resigned.
当时的影子内阁的内政大臣，大卫.戴维斯的辞职。
This Sunday is the anniversary of magna carta.
这个星期天，是《大宪♥章♥》的周年纪念日。
The document that guarantees that most fundamental of British freedoms -
这份文件，保证了英国人最基本的自♥由♥—
the right not to be imprisoned by the state without charge or reason.
—“不被政♥府♥无故监禁的权利”。
But yesterday this house decided to allow the state
但昨天，这个议会决定，允许政♥府♥
to lock up potentially innocent citizens for up to six weeks without charge.
在没有指控的情况下，将可能无辜的公民，关押长达六周。
The view that the then government was eroding piece by piece
当时的政♥府♥正在一点一点地侵蚀我们的
all sorts of our civil liberties,
各种公民自♥由♥，
（资深下院议员：大卫.戴维斯）
mostly through altering the structure of the law...
主要是通过，改变法律结构...
（资深下院议员：大卫.戴维斯）
How long you could be held without charge was the issue at point there
“在没有受到指控的情况下，你能被关押多久，”是问题所在，
and it struck me as a grotesque assault on liberties...
这让我觉得是，对自♥由♥的荒唐侵犯...
Directly on magna carta...
直接违反了《大宪♥章♥》...
Directly on magna carta,directly on delay of justice,
直接违反了《大宪♥章♥》。直接延迟了正义的到来，
directly on the things that we... We believe in...
直接冒犯了了，那些我们...我们相信的事情...
And they're things that our country has become famous for.
而这些，都是让我们这个国家闻名于世的东西。
But the impact of David Davis'
但给大卫·戴维斯带来的冲击是，
own little act of jihadism, of political suicide, was short-lived.
是对圣♥战♥者的小恩小惠，是政♥治♥自杀，是昙花一现的。
We have already taken a wide range of measures,
我们已经采取了广泛的措施,
including stopping suspects from travelling to the region by seising passports...
包括阻止犯罪嫌疑人，通过合法拥有的护照，前往该地区...
Every passing month brings yet more infringement of personal liberties
in the name of the "war on terror".
在“反恐战争”的名义下，每个月都有更多侵犯个人自♥由♥的行为。
..If we are going to deal with extremists of all sorts
...如果我们要应对社会中各种各样的
in our society and uphold our British values, that we are able to take...
极端分子，维护我们的英国价值观，我们就能够采取...
What does constitute suspicious activity
that would warrant that phone call to you?
要构成什么样的可疑活动，才能有权向你打电♥话♥?
Is it possible that we've become complacent
有没有这种可能，我们已经对
about our long tradition of freedom from arbitrary state authority?
使我们免于专♥制♥国家威权的悠久传统，感到了自满?
Are we sacrificing more and more of our liberties
我们是在“安全”的祭坛上牺牲
at the altar of "security",
越来越多的自♥由♥，
and perhaps even sleepwalking towards authoritarianism?
甚至可能“梦游般”地走向威权主义?
Why as a nation that was once so assertive,
为什么，作为一个曾经如此自信、
so sensitive about freedom,why have we become so casual?
对自♥由♥如此敏感的国家,为什么，我们变得如此漫不经心?
Why are we prepared apparently to sacrifice it without question?
为什么我们要明显地、不假思索地牺牲它?
Well, it comes down to this problem that people think that security
归根结底，人们认为安全
is more important than freedom
and future historians will look back on our time
比自♥由♥更重要，未来的历史学家回顾我们的时代会说，
and say the great success of al-qaeda was not the people they killed,
“基♥地♥组♥织♥”的巨大成功，不在于他们杀死了多少人，
it's the way they transformed the western states,
而在于他们改变了西方国家的方式，
turned them from being incredibly freedom-orientated societies
把西方国家从一个以自♥由♥为导向的社会，
to being rather more introverted, nervous societies.
变成了一个更内向、更紧张的社会。
So, is it time to reawaken magna carta from its great slumber?
那么,是时候重新唤醒《大宪♥章♥》了吗?
Well, on past record, perhaps not.
按照以往的记录，也许还不到时候。
Magna carta has often proved quite impotent.
《大宪♥章♥》常常被证明是无能为力的。
Henry viii paid scant attention
to its first clause to protect the freedom of the church.
亨利八世对它的第一条，“保护教会自♥由♥”的条款关注甚少。
Nor did its ringing declaration -
甚至，它那响亮的宣言—
"to no-one will we sell,delay or deny justice" -
“我们不会兜售、拖延或否认任何人的正义”—
stop internment in northern Ireland or Guantanamo bay.
也没有阻止在北爱尔兰，或关塔那摩湾的拘留营。
So, in this day and age,is magna carta really little more than a myth?
因此,在当今这个时代,《大宪♥章♥》真的只是一个神话吗?
I spoke to one of sir Edward coke's professional descendants,
我采访了爱德华·科克爵士的一位后代同行，
retired chief justice for england and wales, lord judge.
退休的英格兰和威尔士首席法官，洛德法官。
Occasionally people will say that magna carta's a myth,
偶尔人们会说,《大宪♥章♥》是一个神话,
it didn't make all the provisions that people attribute to it.
它并没有把人们的所有条款，都写出来。
（洛德法官，前英格兰及威尔士首席法官）
And in that sense they're right, magna carta did not.
仅从这点来说，他们是对的，《大宪♥章♥》确实没有。
But when we think that what we regard as precious to us -
但是当我们想到我们认为珍贵的东西 -
precious liberties, precious freedoms are threatened -
珍贵的解放，珍贵的自♥由♥，受到威胁时 -
we think magna carta.
我们就会想到《大宪♥章♥》。
It's a banner,
it summarises our belief that government should be controlled.
这是一面旗帜，它概括了我们的信念，即：政♥府♥应该被控制。
It summarises our belief in equality before the law.
它概括了，我们对法律面前平等的信念。
Whether that's historically accurate or not,
it means that magna carta is living,
不管这在历史上是否准确，这都意味着《大宪♥章♥》是鲜活的，
and if something is living, it isn't a myth.
如果有什么东西是鲜活的，那它就不是神话。
Magna carta makes no grand,
general statements about Liberty and freedom.
《大宪♥章♥》没有对自♥由♥，做出宏大的、普遍性的陈述。
It's not got right first time.
这不是一开始就得到的权利。
It has to be reworked again and again.
它是通过不断努力得到的。
And yet, the outcome of this process of trial and error
然而,这种不断审判和犯错误的过程，导致的结果是，
is a profound change of political behaviour.
政♥治♥行为的潜在深层的改变。
Consultation and accommodation between ruler and ruled
统治者和被统治者之间的协商和和解
ceased to be exceptional crisis management and have become instead
不再是特殊的危机管理，而是成为
a matter of habit of how we English do things.
我们英国人做事的习惯。
But in this 800th anniversary year,
parliament,our habits of political freedom
但在800周年之际，议会、我们政♥治♥自♥由♥的习惯
and the idea of england herself,
以及英国本身的理念，
are all facing acute challenge...
都面临着严峻的挑战...
..Perhaps the most fundamental of modern times.
...也许这是当今时代，对最基本理念的挑战。
Will the memory of magna carta help to carry us through again?
对《大宪♥章♥》的记念，能让我们再次渡过难关吗?
It would be nice to think so.
能这样想，就很好。