对话杀人魔：杰弗里·达默访谈录（2022）

几乎成了他们每天的工作
In fact, pretty much every day that was their job.
他回顾每一件命案的细节
The way he was able to recall
如此巨细靡遗
every detail of these homicides.
他载了一名搭便车的
真是不可思议
It was incredible.
我还记得
As I recall,
杰夫当时有点醉
Jeff was a little drunk at the time.
我特别问他为何对警方坦承一切
I did ask him why he was telling the police everything,
为何他要自白
why he was rendering a confession.
他说 "温蒂 他们在我的公♥寓♥找到很多东西"
And he said, "Wendy, they found so much in my apartment."
"没辄了
"You know, the gigs up.
所以我宁愿继续跟他们说"
So I would prefer to continue talking with them."
他心意已决
He already had his mind made up.
我也只好说 "杰夫 我尊重你的决定"
At that point I had to say, "Jeff. I will honor that."
他已经自白认罪了
He had already confessed.
我知道丹墨没有人替他辩护
So I knew Dahmer didn't have a defense.
所以我就问他 "你要我怎么帮你"
So I said to him, "What do you want me to do?"
他说 "我想知道我为何会变成这样"
He said, "I wanna know why I am what I am."
于是我告诉他
So I told him,
"我能找很好的心理医生
"I can get a good psychiatrist
过来和你谈一谈
to come and talk to you,
以精神疾病的理由诉请无罪"
and plead you not guilty by reason of mental illness."
"精神失常"
"Insanity."
"但我需要医生
"But I'd need doctors
告诉我他们能支持这个说法"
to tell me they can support that."
真正的工作 是收集足够信息提供给医生
The real job was to get enough information to give to the doctors
来回答他们的疑问
to be able to answer their questions.
问题是他是否精神失常
The question was whether he was sane or insane.
接下来几个月 我花很多时间和他在一起
The next several months, I'd spend considerable time with him,
谈论每一位受害者
talking about each victim
尽量收集信息
and, um, gathering as much information as possible.
温蒂派屈克斯律师 ‎录下32小时的对话
为丹墨的辩护做准备
对谈期间 ‎1991年7月到10月
这些录音带从未对外公开 ‎直到现在
好 杰夫 告诉我 你当时在想什么
Jeff, tell me what you were thinking.
我自己也想不通我怎么会想要
I had wondered why I was compelled
犯下这么多谋杀案
to do all the murders.
我一直在寻找
What I was searching for
能填补我空虚心灵的东西
that would, uh, fill the emptiness that I felt.
把人杀了 然后马上弃尸
The murdering someone and… and disposing of them right away
完全无法给我快♥感♥
gives no great lasting pleasure
或让我感到满足
or a feeling of fulfillment.
但这些年来 我的心中
And yet I still felt the compulsion
依然有杀人的冲动
to do it throughout these years.
杰夫想指认所有被害人
Jeff wanting to identify all the victims,
这一点对一名连续杀人犯
this was very unique
一名真正的连续杀人犯非常特别
in somebody who is a serial killer, a true serial killer.
他没有否认
Didn't deny it.
直接说 "对 我杀了又杀"
And said, "Yes, I killed and I killed."
"我是这样杀人的 是为了这个原因"
"This is how I killed. And this was why."
我似乎没有
I didn't seem to have
平常人的那种同理心
the normal feelings of empathy.
你有没有扪心自问
Did you ever think to yourself,
"为什么我没有平常人的那种感觉"
"Why don't I have feelings that normal people have?"
我的确想过
I did wonder about it.
一开始是幻想
It started with fantasies, fantasizing.
每次都是从幻想开始
It always started with fantasizing, and then
到最后幻想成真了
eventually it seemed the fantasies, uh, came to be.
他把自己的幻想世界
He took his fantasy world
延伸到我们多数人无法想像的境地
to degrees and places that most of us would never even conceive of.
我受杰瑞波伊尔所托
I interviewed Jeffrey Dahmer
和杰佛瑞丹墨面谈
at the request of defense attorney Jerry Boyle.
他们要我对以精神失常作为辩护
I'd been asked if there was, in my view, a defense of
提出我的看法
insanity here.
我在密尔瓦基从事心理鉴识有30年了
I had a 30-year career in Milwaukee as a forensic psychologist,
丹墨的案子发生在我的事业中期
and Dahmer's case came mid-career for me.
之后我也看过一些案件
There were others that followed,
但这算是空前绝后
but nothing like this.
导火线是什么
What triggered it all?
我也希望能给你一个直接了当的答案
I wish I could give you a good, straightforward answer on that.
如果真的要怪
If there's any area that is, uh, to really blame,
就是我自己扭曲的脑袋
it's my own twisted thinking.
我胡思乱想好多年了
I haven't been thinking normally for years.
1991年7月
1965年
杰佛瑞很少提起童年
Jeffrey was more reserved at talking about his childhood.
我看过他小时候和爸爸莱诺的照片
There were pictures I saw of him when he was younger with his dad Lionel,
看起来在平常不过了
and, you know, it seemed very normal.
他们会玩丢接球
You know, they're playing catch with the ball.
但他的父亲经常不在家
But his father was gone a lot.
他是个科学家 当时还在求学深造
He's a scientist, and, you know, he was furthering his own education.
但杰夫坚持没有任何严重创伤
But Jeff was adamant that there wasn't any huge traumas
导致他做出这些事
that would have caused him to do these things.
他没有受到性侵或家暴
Wasn't like he was sexually abused or beaten.
杰佛瑞倒是跟我和杰瑞波伊尔提到
The one thing that Jeffrey did tell me and Jerry Boyle
童年时期对他影响很大的
about his childhood that really affected him
就是他的父母争吵不断
was this, uh, constant bickering between his parents.
在你小时候 爸妈之间有什么问题
What was the problem growing up between your mom and dad?
他们就是合不来
They just couldn't seem to get along,
尤其是我妈
especially on my mom's side.
有暴♥力♥相向吗
Any violence?
就是打耳光那些的
Just the slapping and hitting.
-谁打谁 -妈妈打爸爸
-Who was hitting who? -Um, Mom hitting Dad.
你挺谁
Whose side were you on?
我尽量不选边站
I was trying not to be on anyone's side.
我要求调阅家庭史
I had inquired into the family history
父母双方都有
on both sides
想看看双方家族中
to see if there was any insanity here,
是否有人是精神失常
any peculiar things about those family members
也许我们能从中找到
that might give us an insight
丹墨之所以犯案的蛛丝马迹
as to how Dahmer became what he became.
我在莱诺丹墨的家族什么都没找到
And I didn't find anything on Lionel Dahmer's side.
在乔伊丝那边
And on Joyce's side,
我想她家族里有人酗酒
I think there was some alcoholism in her family.
但很多家庭都有人酗酒
But there's alcoholism in a lot of families.
我认为不具任何意义
So it didn't mean anything to me.
杰佛瑞有个弟弟在杰佛瑞六岁时出生
Jeffrey had, uh, a brother, who was born when Jeffrey was about six.
大卫
David.
所有注目焦点都在弟弟身上
All attention then was given to his younger brother.
所以他当时就时常落单
So he was already alone a lot.
杰夫和我从小到大
When Jeff and I were growing up,
我不觉得他有很多朋友
I don't think he had a large group of friends.
我从没看过有人来玩
I never really saw other people come over.
基本上只有杰夫和我
It was basically Jeff and… and myself.
我们两家的车道刚好就在街道对面
Our driveways were directly across the street from each other,
我们可以一起骑自行车上街
so we could take our bicycles and zoom right across the street,
去打球或滑雪撬
or just play ball, go sledding.
他父亲很担心
His father was quite concerned
杰佛瑞在学校的表现并不好
that Jeffrey did not do well in school.
没什么朋友
Didn't have very many friends.
从来没和女生接触过
Never had any contact with girls.
你知道自己是同性恋有多久了
How long had you known you're homosexual?
我想在我13岁就知道了
Uh, since I was 13, I'd say.
杰佛瑞进入青春期时
Jeffrey became aware of his sexuality
认知到自己的性向
about the time he reached puberty,
这没什么好意外的
which is what you would expect.
他知道这是违背
He knew that it would be contrary
他父母的意愿
to the wishes of his father and mother.
当时他和一个邻居男孩
And it was about the time that he did
尝试了性体验
some sexual experimentation with another boy in the neighborhood.
你们做了什么
What did you do?
只是亲吻
Just kissing.
躺在一起